Schimmel Rifle

[flintster]

Hello, I'm looking to build a Schimmel Flintlock and was wondering about the butt end of the gun with no buttplate. Does anyone have experience with them regarding the utility of the butt being unprotected and exposed to the ground while loading. I expect to give it extra care so as to not hit anything with the butt. Just trying to decide if I should go ahead and put a buttplate on it to be safe. Thanks for any insight.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Put a buttplate on. I repaired 2 contemporary "schimmels" over the last few years. The butts were messes and one had a serious crack in it, probably from contact with wet grass.  There is likely good reason so few "schimmels" survive.

dave 

[Mike Brooks]

You ought to do a search on that, there are several in depth discussions. Basically, if you even lightly touch the unprotected butt to the ground it completely shatters.
Here's an old 170 year old original, you can see how bad the damage is......

[rich pierce]

I think the trick is to bevel the edges of the butt well and not leave an extended narrow toe with bad grain.

[Joe S.]

If I had a rifle with no butt plate I would just use a little more care when loading.Perhaps a scrap piece of rug when at the range.

[ghost]

I always put the gun butt on my foot while loading, didn't want to scratch the buttplate.

[SingleMalt]

Wasn't leather used sometimes?  If it's correct, that may be an option.

[Burg]

This rifle was built around 1825 in Rowan County, NC and has seen considerable use...it is still sound after 191 years.

[gumboman]

This rifle was built around 1825 in Rowan County, NC and has seen considerable use...it is still sound after 191 years.
https://s19.postimg.org/c962jor1f/IMG_1908_copy.jpg
https://s19.postimg.org/yjtxjnobn/IMG_1906_copy.jpg
https://s19.postimg.org/vogucskbn/IMG_1917_copy.jpg

Remarkable indeed!!!!! Buttplates are not absolutely necessary.

[Mike Brooks]

Wasn't leather used sometimes?  If it's correct, that may be an option.

Haven't ever seen leather. The old timers left them plain wood and they lasted just fine. I built myself two guns with out buttplates. Never load them on carpet or my foot, just load them like usual. Here's one that is a couple hundred years old, no worse for the wear. You don't need no stinking  buttplates.....

[Bob Roller]

I always put the gun butt on my foot while loading, didn't want to scratch the buttplate.

That was and is my loading method as well. I have thought about making such a rifle
and perhaps after contouring the butt would treat the end grain with bees wax to
help with that unprotected area. I THINK I've seen a leather "buttplate" on these
ultra simple rifles. I really like this type of rifle because the stark simplicity suits
my way of doing things.
Bob Roller

[oldtravler61]

  Everything will last if you take care of it. An use a little common sense. Oldtravler

[n stephenson]

Here is a trick I learned years ago from a pretty famous gunbuilder. When I don't put a butt plate on I do put a toe plate on. Under the toe plate drill a hole straight up toward the heel of the gun drill this hole small enough that a 1/4 inch lag bolt will thread in . Then counter bore the hole with say a 5/16 inch drill only leaving about an inch in the bottom of the hole to thread the lag bolt into . Now make a counter bore big enough to clear the bolt head under the toe plate . I`ve never had one crack like this but, if it did you could remove the toe plate and snug it up if necessary . I realize this is not HC but it works . And it`s out of site . I know there are a few of them out there that the owners have no idea they are there .           Thanks Nathan

[little joe]

I have had several shooters and at least 4 of them had no butt plate, I would shoot them 2-3  yrs and move them on. Never had one I could not sell and never broke one.

[flintster]

Thanks very much for the opinions, appreciate it.

[deepcreekdale]

Mike, in the first picture you posted, is there wood added on to the butt? It might be just the angle or the lighting but it looks like there is a line of different colored wood about 1/4 inch in. I agree plain wood works fine, but a different piece of wood added as a type of butt plate would be interesting.

[Mike Brooks]

No, all one piece. You may be seeing a bark inclusion.

[axelp]

I think contemporary maker Brent Gurtek made a shimmel where he treated the butt liberally with pine tar resin somehow, and it hardened the butt and protected it. Not sure how HC that is.
K

[galudwig]

I have an Allen Martin Berks Co. shimmel that I purchased off the CLA silent auction table in 2000.  It does not have a butt plate.  It has been my main deer rifle and occasional match rifle so it gets used in a variety of conditions.  Allen stocked the rifle with a nicely figured piece of red maple. A slight "check"  developed in the end grain above the toe about two years after I bought it, but it has never gotten any wider.   



I tend to agree with Rich in that having no sharp edges all around the profile helps prevent chipping and splintering of the wood. At the range I just throw a thick piece of scrap leather on the ground where the butt will rest (mainly because the  base at the loading tables at our range is gravel). In the field, I just make sure that the butt is solid against the ground while loading. As for care, I just wipe the entire stock down occasionally with some gunstock wax.

Although I worried about it initially, the lack of a butt plate has never become an issue for me.

[deepcreekdale]

Thanks, Mike. Might just be the lighting in the picture also. Besides, wouldn't it be a serious pain to try to inlet and form an end grain piece to fit like that! But, the old timers did some oddball things now and again.

[Hungry Horse]

A very good friend of mine built a beautiful shimmel, and incorporated a large antique hand forged square nail into the contact area of the butt. It work perfectly, and the butt area shows little or no wear after years of service.

  Hungry Horse

[Long John]

Flintster,

I'm going to agree with Dave.  I end up with too much invested in a rifle by the time I am finished building it not to put both a butt plate and toe plate on it.  I, too, have repaired a number of guns that "didn't need no stinking butt plate"; at least until they did.  We can all come up with anecdotes to support one opinion versus another but if you want your rifle to have the maximum probability of lasting, I would give it a butt plate and toe plate.

I would NOT use a steel fastener to travers vertically a large fraction of the butt.  Wood expands and contracts with the weather and the seasons.  If you let the wood do its thing it will last.  But a steel fastener or a wooden dowel running vertically up the majority of the butt will prevent the annual expansion and contraction and set the stage for a serious check that will widen over time.  I made that mistake, once.  There is a crack in the butt stock you can stick a match-stick through after 20 years.  Not good!

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[thecapgunkid]

I put a leather buttplate on a Yellow Boy Rifle I used in Cowboy action and a musket I owned about thirty years ago.  In both cases I wanted a shorter pull and did not have the talent to adequately replace the buttplates.  In both cases I  used some sole leather I had in inventory and a bunch of Contact Cement and shoe pegs.  Both of them held up well for the two years I owned and used the pieces.  In both cases the trigger pull and lack of talent/money were the factors.  I did not take any prisoners when I handled my musket on cement firing lines and dropped the butt to the ground.  The Yellow Boy showed almost no wear until the gap up at the bolt got a little large.  It only shot black powder and I traded it in with a clean looking leather butt plate.

If you end up using leather, make sure you gouge ( skive)  the fold on the bend at  the point of the comb so that the bend has an even fit and covers all the wood tightly.  Treat it like a shoe sole by wetting it, shaving the flesh side  edges for a curved fit and molding it with hammer taps over  the entire gun butt.  Put some contact cement on the wood, and apply a piece of Saran Wrap spacer while the glue is wet keeping the water off the wood.  Then coat the saran again with glue and apply the leather  while the glue is still wet and tap the leather tight.  I let both dry  in position the way I would do with an inner sole.   The next morning after peeling away the Saran,  slopping on the contact cement to both wood and leather and letting it dry I gingerly fit the leather to the wood.  I tapped the arrangement until I knew I had a tight fit   I couldn't use a pegging awl, so I  took a drill bit half the diameter of the shoe peg and spaced the holes  about a half inch apart.  Push the points into the hole and pop pegs in with only one shot of the hammer or they will shatter.  When wet they will swell in their holes and seal them.

The contact cement will help seal the wood, and a boatload of oil will help seal the leather

Closely trim and then burnish the edges of the leather with water, beeswax and a boatload of brisk rubbing with a glass jar  until it squeaks.

Knowing what I know about Cordwainers, if any of them applied leather butt plates back then this is the way I'd bet they did it, only they had to use paste.  Like every other leather product, survivors would be undocumented and hard to find.  I am sure there must have been some Joe running around in the woods with this kind of arrangement

Don't shoot yore eye out, kid

The Capgun Kid

[flintster]

Hey caqpgunkid, I like your solution with the leather.I believe I will try this on an old stock and then the new one .  In my opinion any material would be better than bare wood.  Thank you

[Hungry Horse]

 I would like to clarify why it is unlikely that my friends Bedford Schimmel will split from wood expansion. The long tapered square nail was tapped into a hole bored just smaller that the head, which means it had lots of expansion room. The corners of the nail were barbed with a sharp chisel, and the nail was dipped in hot boiled pitch just before tapping it home. This is exactly the method used in old world knife making.

  Hungry Horse