Different trigger idea

[Scota4570]

Set triggers, plain triggers, those are common. 

I have designed a lock that uses an extra lever between the tumbler and the sear.  IT works like a model 700 or Timney.  The complexity is far less than a set trigger mechanism.  The result is the same.  And I dare say, it would make a safer more secure half cock notch. 

Was this ever done on original guns? 

Scot

[David R. Pennington]

Interesting. Pictures?

[Scota4570]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zg0iapt2lhzo4av/lock.bmp?dl=0

Coil springs are not needed, could use flat. The fly is not shown for clarity.  The half cock notch would never have stress on it from pulling the trigger.  The stress on the engagement surfaces would be much less than a traditional sear in a notch.  The pull could be very light without being a safety issue.  The pin placement and angles would need to be optimized.  This is a way to have a large engaging surface on the tumbler but also have a micro movement trigger with a very light pull. 

All that by adding a single part to the lock.

If this idea is not in the public domain, and is my original work, I am not giving anyone permission to make financial gain from this idea without my expressed written consent.  I never seem to have original ideas so, I doubt that is a problem.   

This must have been done before? 

Scot

[frogwalking]

It may just be my thick head, Scott, but I don't see what will make the primary sear disengage from the tumbler.  The primary sear spring appears to press it against the tumbler regardless of the position of the secondary sear.  Having said that, I still think you may be on to something.  Make a mockup from wood and try it.

[Scota4570]

The primary sear has a negative engagement angle in the tumbler.  The angle of the notch is such that it pushes the primary sear out of the notch.  In other words, the tumbler notch angle is such that it wants to squirt the sear out of the notch. But, the secondary sear is in the way.  The force on the secondary sear can be very small if the angles and pivots are worked out. 

In a traditional lock, the primary sear has a positive engagement angle.  Even without a spring the sear should hold the tumbler at full cock.  When you pull the trigger to move the sear out of it's notch the hammer moves back a tiny bit.  You have to do that for safety.  The sear nose has a lot of force on it.  The area is tiny.  That is not good for durability or getting a safe trigger light trigger pull.   

[Mike Brooks]

I'm going to copy your idea and make millions of dollars.

[Bob Roller]

Set triggers, plain triggers, those are common. 

I have designed a lock that uses an extra lever between the tumbler and the sear.  IT works like a model 700 or Timney.  The complexity is far less than a set trigger mechanism.  The result is the same.  And I dare say, it would make a safer more secure half cock notch. 

Was this ever done on original guns? 

Scot

I've seen siamesed sear arrangements on breech loaders but never thought of them on muzzle loaders.
Also some Swiss and German target rifles have multiple lever triggers usually made by watch makers.
At today's labor costs they are cost prohibitive. I've had requests over the last 50 years for more
complex lock mechanisms but never honored the requests.

Bob Roller

[frogwalking]

I thought of the angle, but was concerned that it may become dangerous as the parts wear.  I guess that is the same with a standard lock.

[Turtle]

 Neat! expensive High power spring piston air rifles have a double lever trigger that works on the same principle to hold back the powerful spring and still have a light trigger pull. The cheaper ones don't which explains their heavy trigger pulls.
                                              Turtle

[Scota4570]

I'm going to copy your idea and make millions of dollars.

Sounds great, lets work a percentage deal!   

Scot

[ron w]

as I see it, you could also eliminate the sear bar by making it the trigger. there's really no need for a sear bar when trigger pressures can be made as low as they can with a double lever trigger. all it does is slow down the collapse time of the trigger and make more parts to wear.

[L. Akers]

A wheellock sear in a different orientation.  The fly would be manditory.  Cannot be let down from half cock without drawing the hammer back to the point where the fly kicks forward.  Definitly worth making a prototype.

[BartSr]

I have made several locks (in the past) with a similar design.  Very smooth.

BartSr

[Long John]

Scot,

If you are contemplating seeking patent protection you have shot yourself in the foot.  Describing your idea on a forum like this constitutes "public disclosure".  If you have not already filed for patent protection you need not now, as you have already placed the idea into the public domain. 

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[ghost]

I saw a setup close to this, of all places, eBay awhile ago. I don't think it was an antique appeared to be someone's experiment or whatever. I could email pictures if interested.

[Acer Saccharum]

The only thing I don't like about this is that the full cock notch forces the sear out when the trigger bar is pulled. If springs break, and they do, it's good to have a sear nose that will stay in the notch, even if the spring breaks.

Maybe this design has a double layer of security because there are TWO springs.

[ron w]

have you ever had a look at a typical Mauser's sear arrangement.  Mausers are still acclaimed to be the best, most reliable action ever made.

[Clowdis]

The tumbler's full cock notch would have to be angled so that the primary sear would overcome the spring tension and disengage as soon as the trigger sear moves out of the way. Just like modern trigger/sear arrangement. It should work!

[BartSr]

I got my ideas from the Ardesa rifle lock.

BartSr

[ron w]

I got my ideas from the Ardesa rifle lock.

BartSr

exactly,....no need for a fly then, either.

[Scota4570]

"Ardesa rifle lock"

When I search that all I find is CVA type guns. 

Any pictures or diagrams of the Ardesa rifle lock.

Scot

[Flint62Smoothie]

Extra lever increases locktime ... same w/ set triggers; pull is lowered but locktime increased. These aren't my words, but those of Frank de Haas. I bet he shows one in his tome on single shot rifles (BP cartridge types). He records the testing to prove it.

Not that locktime per se is something I chase w/ my firelocks! But kuddos to you for your innovation and if truly unique, best of luck w/ your idea!

[ron w]

extra lever doesn't increase lock time,......lock time is the time between sear break and primer/cap strike. that time has nothing to do with how many levers the lock has. what it does do is increase trigger travel,.... the pivot for the extra lever is closer to the tumbler the other end has to travel further to break it's support of the sear bar. once the break is made,... lock time is the product of mainspring rebound and preload on the tumbler, tumbler/cock weight, etc. , which doesn't change because there is a second lever. most modern bench rifles have two lever triggers to minimize trigger weight. if lock time was increased with a two lever trigger, they would definitely not be used in a bench rifle as movement must be kept to a minimum between break and strike. a slower lock would exasperate the effect of any movement in those few milliseconds, opening up the group.