Author Topic: Fantasy Rifle  (Read 15944 times)

Lee44shootercnb

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Fantasy Rifle
« on: January 24, 2017, 11:48:21 PM »
Found the below and wanted to share.  The site link is at the end.

Fantasy Rifle?

Are you building or carrying a "fantasy rifle?" Would your friends tell you if you were?
A brief look at defining a term used in several different ways and a bit of personal opinion on one kind of increasingly common fantasy rifle.
 

To my knowledge it was Alan Gutchess who first introduced the term "fantasy rifle," in about 1988 while he was working as an apprentice in the Colonial Williamsburg Gunsmith Shop, to describe a modern made longrifle that was so different from any known originals that it was in fact the builder’s “fantasy.” Alan actually adapted the term from a catalog from Atlanta Cutlery that had a section named Fantasy Knives for blades carried in movies like Konan the Barbarian, etc. At the time he, and soon all of us in the shop, were using the term mostly to refer to what builders and parts/kit dealers were calling “transitional rifles”—the elusive missing link between the Jaeger and the longrifle. The term caught on quickly and several other folks have claimed authorship.
Over the last two decades the term fantasy rifle has expanded to have several different meanings. This article offers some thoughts on those additional meanings:

 I. One type that discussed a good bit recently on Internet message boards, especially those about reenacting and trekking, would be a Pre-Revolutionary style Lancaster or Christian Spring rifle with iron mounts filed up and engraved like the many brass examples. The early use of iron mounts in those regions is simply not documentable at this time but that has not stopped dealers from offering them or builders from using them. Undoubtedly they have a lot of appeal but none are known to survive and none show up in writings of the period.

 II. Another type of fantasy rifle would be the grand presentation-grade rifles where a longrifle form is decorated with the amount, style and quality of art found on a fine European arm. Several of these were included in the Three Centuries of Tradition show at The Minneapolis Institute of Arts in 2003 and are in the catalog of that exhibit. The masterful work of the top builders like John Bivins, Jud Brennan, and Wallace Gusler come to mind. (These men also make extremely fine examples of rifles made “in a workman like manner” that could be carried back in time to colonial America and fit right in.) When it was featured on the cover of Muzzle Blasts magazine, Wallace described his elaborately wire inlayed fantasy rifle as “male jewelry.” He saw no need to drill a touch hole because he knew it would never be fired by the customer he made it for.

III. A third kind of fantasy rifle is one where the components of the rifle are jarringly out of time. The most common example of this an 18th-century style rifle with a parallel sided barrel or German silver mounts or inlays. Less obvious out of time details are found when Federal Period motifs are used on a rifle purported to be from the third quarter of the 18th century.

IV. I also believe that a Revolutionary War style or even Golden Age rifle with the fit and finish of an 1860 English sporting rifle or a 1910 Purdy shotgun is yet another kind of fantasy rifle. I confess that I have attempted, with varying degrees of success, to build this kind of fantasy rifle. Many of you readers have as well.
Some builders will say that their customers expect this level of workmanship, others do it because of the desire to show that they can to work as good or better than the best from the past or the best of their peers. Ron Ehlert paraphrased a popular country music song by Toby Keith when he proposed printing a tee shirt for the NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar with, “Gunbuilding, as good as it ever was!”
It is sometimes difficult to know where to stop; when to let good enough alone and move on. One area where this has attracted attention in recent years is in the relief carving—especially the “backgrounding” (finishing of the background). Some gunsmiths have been able to educate their customers and find acceptance for work that is much more period correct than what was being sold thirty years ago. Others have, in my opinion, let the pendulum swing too far and have, in the tradition of blacksmith who deliberately leave in hammer marks, turned out carving that is courser than that found on even the least refined period work.
Realizing that the level of fit and finish that is appropriate on a fine golden age rifle should be much higher that what you would find on an “average” Rev War period rifle, I try not to overwork any part of the rifle, inside or out.
I just don’t see the need or documentation for polishing the file marks out of the bottom three flats of the barrel, inletting a lock so the slots in the sear and bridle screws show in the bottom of the inlet (a detail faked on some high grade 19th-century English work by striking a slotted polished punch in the bottom of the inlet), or putting stain and/or finish in a patchbox cavity!
Some who have heard me state these opinions, or read this web page, have interpreted them to mean that I am encouraging "sloppy work." That is not my belief or intent. In the 18th century there was an appreciation of a product made in a "workman like manner." Perhaps this is most evident in furniture making where the various surfaces were finished as needed or expected and no more. A grand table from the period will be carefully scraped and varnished to a near mirror surface on the top but left with plane marks and unfinished on the bottom. The relief carving at eye level on a highboy will be better detailed and finished than that at the top or along the skirt.
Rifles were the same way on a smaller scale. Barrel channels were rarely cut to match the flats of the barrel except at the very breech and muzzle ends--the rest was simply planed round. Drill bit and chisel marks were accepted, and "normal," in a patchbox cavity. Lock plates fit snuggly around the edges but the inletting of the internals was usually very hastily done with almost no contact between wood and metal.
Bottom line is I don’t agree with those who advise a new builder to make rifles where everything as "perfect" as possible. Make the work as authentic as possible instead. It is actually somewhat harder to do authentic work because it requires a broad understanding of what the "workman like" standards were for rifles of different periods, regions, and even individual makers. 
From: http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/WebArticles/FantasyRifles.htm
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 05:37:19 AM by Lee44shootercnb »

Offline hanshi

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2017, 12:39:49 AM »
I always thought of a "fantasy rifle" as being the same as a "fantasy girlfriend"; in other words, something that is not real.  With the obvious use of materials or carving that didn't come to use until a later time, I don't feel comfortable saying a rifle is not correct for a period in time.  To call a rifle "not authentic", IMHO, simply because it's not a replica of something is like judging what an strange animal looks like by just examining the tip of an ear.

For every original rifle that still exists there are hundreds of thousands that no longer exist; and one can't realistically say that the .01% defines the other 99.99%.  More than a few fine gun builders will say (this is) "my interpretation of X"; and no one will call them on it.  A single rifle will not fit everyone.  While 18th & 19th century builders usually had rifles in stock for sale, some customers - just like today - required a "custom" rifle built to fit them and with particular details that suited just that customer.  So, did 18th & 19th century builders create "fantasy" rifles?  That sounds, to me, like an interesting and perhaps an unanswerable question. 

While I'm not particularly well schooled concerning old time rifles and builders, I can't see how they would be so different from modern smiths.  In short, does a rifle built today HAVE to be a replica or near replica; IMHO I'd tend to say "no it doesn't".  And no one should suffer criticism for the guns they build including near replicas or just something a bit different. 
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Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2017, 04:07:48 AM »
Lee,

I think the link you meant to provide is this one......  http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/WebArticles/FantasyRifles.htm

-Ron
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Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2017, 04:09:19 AM »
I split off all the off-topic replies discussing ALR member "handles" or nick-names and moved it to Over the Back Fence.  Here's a link, if you're looking for it.....  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=42760.0

-Ron
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 04:31:34 AM by Ky-Flinter »
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Lee44shootercnb

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2017, 05:40:03 AM »
Ky-Flinter you are correct.  Thank you very much for finding the error.  Sorry for it
I changed the link in original post
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 05:40:41 AM by Lee44shootercnb »

Offline WaterFowl

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2017, 06:06:37 AM »
If its not original its a replica  and how many originals have not been tweaked?
......nobody here is building originals.Copies yes
How and why they build them is their business...The rest is fluff!
Ok Then..Back under my rock I go!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 06:08:31 AM by WaterFowl »

ron w

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2017, 08:11:42 PM »
I don't think they have to replicate any known example.  there are basic design parameters that have been established for just about every original makers' architecture. following these guidelines will produce a gun that is suggestive of a particular style, but that is really all we can do, and in my mind, that is good enough. I like percussion half stocks. there are several originals to copy, but if you do a care ful job of incorporating know period characteristics to any build, you will end up with a well represented replica of the style as a whole. some of us might not be talented enough to incorporate all the subtle details that solidly nail any particular style down, but any good job will be representative of a era that contained the style ,because even the original builders never made any two guns exactly the same, so there is argument that there is really no established style in anything you might want to build. all we can do is build with an architecture that suggests a particular builders' work the variations that result from our building are no more un-authentic than the variations that the original builders produced in their guns during their era. I personally feel that the term "fantasy rifle", applies to a rifle that is overly specific to one particular style or original sample.  who's to say. that the sample we are looking at, at any given time, isn't a deviation from what would be the original builder's standard architecture?. it is in my opinion, fantasy, to assume that because we are building a copy of any original, we are building in the specific architecture that the original builder considered his standard architecture.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 08:22:00 PM by ron w »

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2017, 08:24:20 PM »
Unless someone is claiming to reproduce a particular maker or schools, I see nothing wrong with "fantasy" work. Allowing the talented makers of today to come up with their own styles and designs while still being reflective of the longrifle's basic designs and our forefathers should be seen as part of the long rifles heritage. The original builders certainly developed their own styles without worrying that someone would accuse them of building rifles that weren't "Lancaster" enough and the like. Why shouldn't the talented artisans living today continue to allow the designs to evolve? I certainly can't see how doing too good of work is a problem.
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline hanshi

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2017, 10:38:12 PM »
I find these posts interesting and informative.  All my rifles are extremely well made and attractive but they do not bring to mind any particular builder.  They DO bring to mind rifles created in certain areas - what is currently referred to as "style".  One that I had built is so "custom" that it looks like two "styles" mated and produced a hybrid child.  They all also are suggestive, at least, of certain "periods" in history.  Every builder today creates his idea of what represents a period in history and what is correct for that period.  Also no two builders, and no two people, see the same thing when they look at or build a gun; everyone's reality is slightly different from his "brother's".  Barring some glaring addition or omission, the vast majority of rifles today can fit nicely - okay, at least "approximately" - into a legitimate category.  I stand by my shaky opinions and agree with much of what's been posted: but I'm a duffer on the subject so what do I know?   8)
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2017, 12:23:05 AM »
My current opinion is that everything read on the internet is pure fantasy. You never know who might be saying it..... One man's fantasy may be another man's reality.;)
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Offline homerifle

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2017, 07:32:34 AM »
I think that Mark Silver did a great article in the "American Tradition", July 2011 titled, "Contemporary Longrifles, The New School Perspective".

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2017, 10:19:59 AM »
   I am not really much of a stickler for historical accuracy, but I like the idea of keeping it at least historically plausible. Is it that far out of the realm of possibility to have a longrifle with medieval Norse design carvings on it? I think it would be kind of neat if you stayed true to the basics of the style you are trying to recreate. I'm sure there were a few Scandinavian guys in America that had rifles built for them back in the old days, so who knows? It may have actually been done once or twice.  If you are building it and paying for it, you get to make whatever you want. You can build a JP Beck replica with a pistol grip and a laser beam if that is what you want. Your kitty cat would love it!

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2017, 04:55:16 PM »
Unless someone is claiming to reproduce a particular maker or schools, I see nothing wrong with "fantasy" work. Allowing the talented makers of today to come up with their own styles and designs while still being reflective of the longrifle's basic designs and our forefathers should be seen as part of the long rifles heritage. The original builders certainly developed their own styles without worrying that someone would accuse them of building rifles that weren't "Lancaster" enough and the like. Why shouldn't the talented artisans living today continue to allow the designs to evolve? I certainly can't see how doing too good of work is a problem.

I would like to do "too good"work at least once. Having grown up under the
influence of Bill Large and the writings of Major Ned Roberts my "fantasy"
rifle has been for 60 years the Whitmore Target rifle made for General Grant that
has been slowly deteriorating in the Smithsonian Institute fro 110 years.
I saw a representation of that rifle at a CLA show a few years ago but it was ruined with a $15
lock that hurt it. I'm NOT much of a builder and have little time for it now but if I quit
dreaming then I'm dead.

Bob Roller

Offline hanshi

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2017, 08:52:24 PM »
Mike B. may be on to something; I mean, I still believe I'm part Klingon.  :o
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Offline stuart cee dub

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2017, 09:48:36 PM »
Everything we make currently from Bench copies to imaginative assemblies of parts ,are in my humble opinion ,fantasy rifles built out of nostalgia.
Some are just better than others closer to historical precedents.

Machined barrels ,lathes, digital calipers ,internet access to endless images ,even  the heathcare system we use to extend our working lives and the lighting we use to extend our working hours and the fact that we have the free time to indulge in gun making as a hobby (for most of us) allowing us to support our nostalgia .

There is nothing wrong with any of it .It's both sport and art ,sometimes really great art but nothing we make is really period even if we hand forged and filed everything.

Imagination is what makes us human.
 

     
 

Offline hanshi

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2017, 09:47:42 PM »
Good post, Stuart.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2017, 11:11:17 PM »
   I am not really much of a stickler for historical accuracy, but I like the idea of keeping it at least historically plausible...

I love that term, "Historically Plausible" (HP), and now I have three good designators: HP, Bench Copy, and Fantasy.  Thanks for that.


...the heathcare system we use to extend our working lives...

According to latest medical research, it's much more effective and cheaper to extend our working/existing lives with proper nutrition. We are eating ourselves to death with garbage. I'm a bit of a nutrition nut (of recent and wonderful change). PM for details, references, and trusted sources; as folks are generally resistant to any helpful changes in eating/lifestyle (despite fast, obvious, and proven benefits.)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 11:12:17 PM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2017, 02:47:52 AM »
Well, it'll be a cold day in Hades before I would attempt to build a gun, so my idea of a "Fantasy rifle" would be a Transitional composition:o sort of in the style of a Hill Pearce or Gahagan Antes rifle at around .62 caliber. Nothing too flashy. No aging to the wood or metal parts (let's make it look all new). I think sling-loops would be appropriate in keeping with the character. Just a nice hard-hitting workhorse. All for under a thousand bucks. And yes, shootable and constructed with real wood, iron and brass too.

Now that's a fantasy and I'm not smoking any ditch weed either.

You guys keep building just as you do. I enjoy beyond compare checking out the websites of those that have them and/or seeing what's posted here of your works. "Fantasy" or not, you builders are true artists, so fantasize away.

Offline Robby

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2017, 04:45:31 AM »
I guess they are all fantasy guns till they're before your eyes and in your hands.
Robby
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Smoketown

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2017, 04:12:44 PM »
Nothing too flashy. No aging to the wood or metal parts (let's make it look all new).

All the old rifles were "new" at one time.    ;)

Cheers,
Smoketown

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2017, 07:34:43 PM »
Nothing too flashy. No aging to the wood or metal parts (let's make it look all new).

All the old rifles were "new" at one time.    ;)

Cheers,
Smoketown
All of my aged rifles were new at one time as well. ;) Did you know that a Carolina gun in native hands lasted on the average 2 years before it was used up? Just a little fantasy trivia. ;D
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Offline hanshi

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2017, 09:56:44 PM »
Yes, the builders on this forum really come up with some amazing gun craftsmanship.  Fantasy, HP, HC/PC, custom, you name it.  I'd just like to see more photos of guns; I NEVER tire of that.
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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2017, 10:20:25 PM »
  My fantasy gun is my 24in. 62 caliber shortgun flinter/ trade gun/ canoe gun. Whatever yeah want to call it. It's my story an I'm sticking to it. Mike without the B. Lol

ron w

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2017, 04:45:40 PM »
as said, all we can do is build a suggestive representation of a general style or specific gun. be it hand entirely made, or made with the help of modern machinery, it is still only a representation of an original, or an assumption of what the builder thinks existed back then. there's nothing wrong with that. there are many guns that have been built that mimic no original, yet are  good a representation of a style from a particular era. I like to think that any gun made, as long as it follows a somewhat broad parameter of being a muzzle loader built with traditional lines and reasonabley accurate parts is as good a representation as any gun built to be an exact copy of a specific gun or style of gun.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Fantasy Rifle
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2017, 05:54:38 PM »
as said, all we can do is build a suggestive representation of a general style or specific gun. be it hand entirely made, or made with the help of modern machinery, it is still only a representation of an original, or an assumption of what the builder thinks existed back then. there's nothing wrong with that. there are many guns that have been built that mimic no original, yet are  good a representation of a style from a particular era. I like to think that any gun made, as long as it follows a somewhat broad parameter of being a muzzle loader built with traditional lines and reasonabley accurate parts is as good a representation as any gun built to be an exact copy of a specific gun or style of gun.
I disagree, but that's OK.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?