Frizzen and Mainspring balanced?

[Jerry V Lape]

Recent post about altering the frizzen spring brought to mind this question.  I have read remarks several times about lock work which all cited the need to balance the mainspring and frizzen spring.  But I can't recall any instruction regarding knowing what that actually means. So in the interest of learning something I would appreciate some discussion of how to assess when the two springs are in balance and when they are not?  And how to make corrections if they are not in balance? 

[Turtle]

 I vaguely remember a talk by Jim Chambers? at a Rendezvous years ago where the speaker talked about a lock,when discharged when held in the hand out of the rifle. It should "jump"very  little if balanced. I'm sure much more knowledgeable soles than I can clarify this.
                                                                     Turtle

[rich pierce]

At the basic level the mainspring must drive the cock with enough force to always open the frizzen regardless of flint length or condition. The frizzen spring must be strong enough to keep the pan closed until fired, provide resistance to the flint to enhance sparking, and keep the frizzen open after firing. A weak frizzen spring will allow frizzen rebound often smashing the flint edge. This happens too fast to see with the naked eye.

[jerrywh]

 A frizzen has three functions. #1 is to stop the priming charge from spilling. #2 to keep the prime dry. #3 is to produce sparks. 
  These three functions can be varying orders of priority depending on the main purpose of the firearm.
 The situation may be different for a dueler than a hunting gun an again different for a target gun. 
 Just for so you will know, take the frizzen spring off of the lock and then fire the lock with the frizzen closed and see how it sparks. You will most likely find that it spark better that way than any other. Go from there according to what you want to do with the gun.  The best target shooter in this part of the country for many years has a flintlock with a very weak frizzen spring. That lock fires like a percussion and rarely misfires. You can switch springs for another situation.  Old man logic.   

[A.Merrill]

I second what Jerry said.....   Al

[smart dog]

Hi Jerry,
As always, you ask a good question.  I have a small spring scale.  I hook it on the flintcock at rest and pull the lock back to full cock, read the weight.  I then hook it on the frizzen and pull it forward until the frizzen snaps open all the way and read the weight.  I generally want the pounds and ounces of pull required to open the frizzen to be about 30% of that needed to pull the flintcock back to full.  This establishes my starting point and often is the right balance to produce lots of sparks but not smash up flints. If I adjust the springs further, it is generally to weaken the frizzen spring, however, I go slowly because I do not want the spring so weak that the frizzen bounces back and knaps the flints and I don't want the frizzen to open with only a slight knock so I don't lose my priming. To make big changes in spring tension, I heat, bend, harden and temper the springs.  For fine changes, I carefully grind the hardened and tempered spring.   

dave

[Turtle]

 I used to think a strong frizzen spring made the lock hard on flints. My Chambers late Ketland cured me of this assumption. The frizzen is so strong actually hurts your fingers if they get in the way when you open it, but flint life is great. The 2 frizzen spring is clever. A friend at a shoot broke a frizzen spring and was going to quit. I encouraged him to keep shooting. Gun went off fine, but broke 2 flints.
                                              Turtle

[Acer Saccharum]

I've had issues on some locks with the frizzen rebounding after firing, often chipping off huge chunks of flint in the process.

You can't see the rebound, but if you put a thin piece of card stock on the top side of the flint(clamp it under the top jaw to hold it in place) you will see marks on the card where the frizzen has struck and bounded away again.

On one lock, no matter how I reshaped the frizzen spring, it always rebounded. I came round to thinking the mainspring was too strong, so I reduced the arm thickness until the rebound issue went away. I went through the 'balancing process' with this lock, if you want to call it that.

[Turtle]

I think the roller mounted on the ketland frizzen spring creates such a strong overcenter effect that the frizzen can't bounce back?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Not so...I have Chambers' Late Ketalnd on my Kuntz rifle and I've been plagued with frizzen re-bound since day one.  I have replaced the frizzen once, the frizzen spring three times, and even installed larger wheels to beat the problem, but to no0 avail.  I then reduced the power of the mainspring, and still no success.
I have a brand new lock that came with my Kibler kit, and it does not re-bound.  the action of the frizzen on it is very stiff, so that will be my next attack...stiffen the tension of the frizzen spring.

[WadePatton]

Good thread.  I've been getting a bit of bounce from my frizzen, and have already worked on the cock angle and mainspring.  Time to beef up the frizzen spring methinks.

It hasn't proved to be a real problem, but I like to find the fired lock in a consistent position. I'm funny like that. 

[Turtle]

 Interesting. My Ketland is new and has a real strong frizzen spring, maybe Jim made a change?
                                                   Turtle

[Hungry Horse]

Having had several old flintlocks over the years. One thing stands out as a big difference between these old locks, and many of the modern reproductions. All but one of these locks when fired allowed the frizzen to cam over to the point that the steel battery itself was almost parallel with the barrel. This makes rebound nearly impossible. I have ground the foot of a couple of cheap kit gun flintlocks that had rebounding issues, and it put a stop to it.

  Hungry Horse

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Good tip HH!

[BartSr]

Thanks folks, about this discussion.  Since I started making my own flintlocks, this is a great help.

BartSr

[TDW]

Taylor,
   I had an identical issue with a custom rifle I ordered some years back. The lock was the Chambers Late Ketland. It would destroy the flint on nearly every shot. I ordered 5 new frizzed springs from Barbie, and tried adjusting the strength to no avail. An old friend (Dan Pharriss) suggested that I lengthen the top jaw leather until I could get it figured out. I extended the leather to the tip of the flint, and immediately quit breaking flints (the rebounding frizzen just bounces off the leather). I will try HH's suggestion to see if it is the "cure", but in the meantime this has enabled me to enjoy the rifle.
  Like yours, the Late Ketland lock on my Kibler kit does not exhibit this issue.
Best,
Tom W.

[EC121]

I think the the bump on the spring of the Late Ketland can be ground down(or notched a bit) at the open position to make it harder for the frizzen to rebound.  I've heard that some version of this fix(stiffer spring or higher bump) is incorporated into the newer lock from Chambers.  Might explain why the newer locks don't rebound.

[WadePatton]

Good tip HH!

Second that notion!

thanks.

[Dphariss]

I like stiff springs. With a long throw a mild  main and frizzen springs will work. However, weak frizzen springs can cause broken flints when the spring is compressed at full open and the frizzen is flung back to the closed position and strikes the flint breaking it or denting the top jaw. This can be mitigated to some extent by cutting the leather long enough to cover the area struck by the returning frizzen. A stiffer spring and having the frizzen foot and/or roller (if so equipped) fitted to limit or prevent rebound can reduce or eliminate this problem.
Weak frizzen springs can allow the frizzen to move too easily when hunting and result in the pan being empty when firing. So I like stiff springs in this context as well. A stiff mainspring will speed the cocks fall and generally spark better in the smaller locks especially.

Dan

[Dphariss]

One other thing that people need to remember when discussing old locks is that many American rifles had locks that were low grade and decades from state of the art at the time. This is indicated by American Fur Company's instruction to Henry in selecting flintlocks for their trade rifles circa 1830. Instructing that care be taken to make sure they had high quality locks.  In his book "The Gun" W Greener circa 1830 tells us that lock files got as little as 6 pence for a lock. I have seen a box full of original percussion locks marked '"Goulcher" that were absolute junk as cheap as they could possibly be, 6 pence locks perhaps. I suspect that an inspection of many American rifles flint or other wise would so that many had pretty poor locks. So I don't put a lot of stock in looking at old rifles to make a determination as to what is a good or bad lock.

[Daryl]

One problem with frizzens that bend over backwards so to speak, is the flat under surface of the frizzen faces the shooter and reflects debris back into the shooter's forehead.  There are limits.

[Turtle]

 I read somewhere about the ratio of flints to loads issued to the British army, it was really high. Anyone have that figure?
                                                               Turtle

[Dphariss]

I read somewhere about the ratio of flints to loads issued to the British army, it was really high. Anyone have that figure?
                                                               Turtle

Remember in linear tactics 2-4 shots was max then they charged with the primary weapon, the bayonet.
They also used French gun flints all through the American Revolution. 
Dan

[Smoketown]

I read somewhere about the ratio of flints to loads issued to the British army, it was really high. Anyone have that figure?
                                                               Turtle

I recall reading (somewhere) that the issue was 20 paper cartridges per flint.

Cheers,
Smoketown

Found One Article ... http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/rivista-dettaglio.asp/l_it/idne_89/69-ball-buck-and-ball-and-buckshot-cartridges-of-the-us-army.html

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Re:  rebounding hammer on Chambers' Late Ketalnd.  Rather than increase the frizzen spring tension, I ground about 1/32" off the bottom of the frizzen's foot stop.  That allows the frizzen to rotate just a little further, and that increases the resistance of the wheel on the frizzen's toe, stopping it from rebounding and smashing 1/8" off every flint.  Love it!!