Author Topic: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock  (Read 14343 times)

Paul Hamler

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CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« on: January 28, 2017, 06:41:11 AM »
I recently hosted a group of gun and rifle builders in the shop where we shared ideas, demonstrated engraving and carving techniques,told lies and ate some of my wife's great chilly. I demonstrated a few of my latest projects including  the CNC  machining of a Lancaster rifle stock. It was suggested I do a show and tell slide to document of the process.
To see an overview of the process go to the following link. https://hamlertools.smugmug.com/Hobbies/CNC-Machining-a-Lancaster/
Hope you enjoy.
Paul 

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2017, 11:04:57 AM »
   Thank you for this. It is nice to see the fixtures that you use. One of the local fortune 500 companies bought a 5 axis CNC milling machine then decided that they don't need it. I bought it for $100 before they ever turned it on. Glad that I am not a shareholder! Problem is that it came with no electronics. My brother is working on the nerd part of that. Should have it up and running in a few months. Its too small to cut a stock, but could be useful for butt plates and trigger guards and such.

   I will probably buy a 8 to 10 foot long 4 axis CNC mill within the next year. Not sure what kind of fixture it would take to cut a longrifle stock in 4 axis. Problem is the flex in the fore end. Any fixture that makes it rigid enough would get in the way. I have an absolutely amazing 3d modeling software package that could be used to design the most elaborate carving ever done on a longrifle. Funny thing is that I don't think I want to.

   I build rifles because I enjoy it. And I enjoy it because I can take pride in doing the work by hand, mostly the same way that it was done a couple hundred years ago. I don't want to use any technology more advanced than a drill press or a totally manually controlled milling machine. I like the idea of spending dozens of hours working with my chisels. And most of all I never want to turn rifle building into any sort of commercial venture. Trying to finish a rifle before the electric bill is due would just take all of the enjoyment out of it for me. No disrespect for those of you that do this for a living. It is just not for me. I spent 20 years working as a goldsmith. The last 5 or so years doing mostly very high end custom work. I loved the work, but it got to the point where I hated the job. I am done with that now. Building rifles will never be more than a hobby for me. But I bet I can use a big CNC milling machine to make some really cool furniture.

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2017, 07:43:27 PM »
I recently hosted a group of gun and rifle builders in the shop where we shared ideas, demonstrated engraving and carving techniques,told lies and ate some of my wife's great chilly. I demonstrated a few of my latest projects including  the CNC  machining of a Lancaster rifle stock. It was suggested I do a show and tell slide to document of the process.
To see an overview of the process go to the following link. https://hamlertools.smugmug.com/Hobbies/CNC-Machining-a-Lancaster/
Hope you enjoy.
Paul
AW -- how cute ;D. They look adorable ;). Do they shoot? What kind of price are we talking here for one?
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline Scota4570

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2017, 11:28:02 PM »
The most highly regarded "kits" are done this way.  Probably one guy in 20 actually makes his stock from a board.  Are we to only do discuss building using only hand tools.  Is a pantograph OK?  A drill press?  A milling machine?  A bandsaw?  Practically nobody does the job as it was done in 1775.  IT 's just not realistic to demand it. 

It's a slippery slope, I am not sure where the edge of the cliff actually is.  I do know we should encourage folks.  Otherwise our hobby will fade away. 

Offline Joe S.

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2017, 12:03:02 AM »
I'm trying to do as much of the work on mine as I can by hand,all hand tools.I did use the dremel for some of the metal,battery powered hand drill for the holes ect.That being said without a back ground in using these as well as some chisels,files ect.I think you would be in over your head with other "kits" I think there's a place for these kits built by CNC machines and such.It's a great option for folks with limited experience and tools to get their feet wet and end up with a nice gun that hopefully plants the seed to want to take the next step.Some real nice rifles being shown on this site being built using those kits
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 01:47:29 AM by Joe S. »

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2017, 01:38:51 AM »
   Joe I'm with you. I like seeing my rifles come out of the blank I'm working with. Good bad or ugly. But on the other shoe J.Kibler an J.Chambers have taken kit building to a higher level. Wonder how many on here. Started with the T.C an CVA kits to mention a couple. Hopefully these new kits will get more people involved. We can only hope.  Oldtravler

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2017, 02:04:56 AM »
Aside from very sparing use of a bandsaw and drill press,  my guns are all stocked from a blank with hand tools.   No machine inlets and machine shaping.   It is why I have to charge an arm and a leg if you want me to make you one.   It's my thing.    I use more machine tools to make tools, but not to build the gun. 

Offline Joe S.

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2017, 02:22:32 AM »
my stock was pre carved to some extent, still taking plenty of wood off.I was surprised to have to take a rasp to it.I figured some minor wood removal,LOL.While I originally wanted to go with a plank I just didn't have all the tools needed to do it.

Offline L Meadows

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2017, 03:07:38 AM »
I'm always somewhat surprised when these topics come up at the resistance toward a cnc kit gun. On one hand people are constantly talking about what to do to get people involved in shooting long rifles,but scorn anyone who seems to buy one. I realize there are a lot of talented gun builders on this site,but most aren't,either because of lack of talent,lack of funds for purchase of tools to build such a gun,or time involved. Kit guns offer people like myself,who have limited skills and equipment,to build and enjoy a gun they have pride in. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a custom three thousand dollar rifle,and im sure they are worth every penny,and I'm also sure the builder doesn't make a ton of money at that price,but why the scorn of owning a kit gun? We already have categories for antique and contemporary rifles,looks like we will soon judge a rifle as to whether it was built from a blank or milled on a cnc machine,with the blank build being more desirable. If it really matters to build from a blank,then why not go all the way and build every component from scratch?

Offline JCKelly

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2017, 03:09:44 AM »
Mr. Hamler makes a beautiful rifle, albeit a trifle small for some of you. He did a great job replacing the sear spring on my 1974 Shell copy. Before I bought it back from Wayne Driskill for $1 or 2 more than I'd sold it for 38 years earlier.

This IS a hobby, though it seems to have some overtones of a religion. As a hobby I think we all do it in the way that maximizes our enjoyment. Personally I've not a machinist bone in my body and can barely spell cnc. I used to build "from plank" with hand tools because that's what I had & I enjoyed it. My Shell was built using a jeweler's lathe, circa 1963 Black & Decker 1/4" drill on a stand, with assorted rasps, files & wood chisels. Oh yeah, I used a Sears bandsaw to cut out the stock blank from a board (which I still have).Terribly inefficient but fun at the time.

ron w

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2017, 05:21:24 AM »
many builders start with a blank sitting on their shelves in their shop and send it in to be pre-shaped by the gun order. sort of "lying by omission" you might say,....being that they can then say they make stocks "from the blank".

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2017, 06:05:56 AM »
I started this web site to preserve traditional gun making.   I certainly hope this post doesn't foreshadow a move  into recreating these old guns with modern manufacturing techniques.   To me it just completely defeats the purpose behind the effort, which is devolping process and not producing an end result.  This post makes me very sad.

Offline L Meadows

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2017, 06:45:05 AM »
I see your point of re-creating these rifles the old way,but if that is the true intention of this site then why let anything other than rifles built from scratch be presented? If that's the niche your after it seems to exclude a lot of people who are interested in longrifles,meaning drawing new people to purchase a contemporary build. It seems that it is inferred that this site is meant for only a few.

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2017, 10:45:53 AM »
I started this web site to preserve traditional gun making.   I certainly hope this post doesn't foreshadow a move  into recreating these old guns with modern manufacturing techniques.   To me it just completely defeats the purpose behind the effort, which is devolping process and not producing an end result.  This post makes me very sad.

   I agree with you. But I do not think that this foreshadows a move into general modern manufacturing. When I was in my 20's I thought all that tactical stuff was about the coolest things out there and the black powder guns were just silly. When I was in my 30's that tactical stuff was not so cool anymore. Started getting revolvers, lever action, and bolt action, taking glances at the old fashioned black powder guns. Now in my 40's I own old fashioned guns. I still have a bunch of modern guns. Everything from polymer semi-autos to dangerous game rifles. It is pretty easy to make the case that the modern guns are superior in every way. But that does not matter because I just like the old fashioned guns better!

   It took 20 years for my preference to shift from the modern guns to the old ones. I think that is fairly typical. I think that the number of guys that start shooting with longrifles is tiny. The 21 year old guys now all want Glocks and AR-15s and few of them have ever even seen a real longrifle. Nobody is going to go from sticking scopes and lasers (kitty toys) on a AR-15 to building a Beck replica from a blank.

   My first venture into black powder was with a cap and ball revolver. That was when I realized how much fun this black powder stuff is. After that came the Pedersoli guns. That is when I realized that the old guns were just a lot more fun than the modern ones. Then I started reading up on the history of times when these old guns were used. The old guns have something that the modern ones never will. Building them is a natural next step to get further into this world.

   Modern manufacturing certainly has a valid place. It is what makes it possible to go from shooting these guns to building them. My first build was from a pre carved stock from Track of the Wolf. That pre carved stock is what made me think it was possible for me to do a build. If my only option was to work from a blank, I doubt that I would have ever even given it a try. What I learned working from that is that I actually can build a rifle and that I was a lot more excited to work on it than I was to have a finished rifle. I have another pre carve sitting behind me right now. Just waiting for barrel to come in. After that I doubt I will ever buy another pre carve again. I enjoy the build and want to get further into that. I look forward to working from blanks with hand tools.

   Modern manufacturing may be an issue for the guys that build these for a living. Bills need to be paid and the modern methods make that a whole lot easier. But most here do this as a hobby. Anyone primarily interested in the end result would have nothing to do with a black powder rifle in the first place. If the end result is to kill a deer, kill a bad guy, or put holes in a little target very far away, a rifle that was obsolete 200 years ago is a rather poor choice. The whole point of these old rifles is to get away from the modern world. I see the modern manufacturing as a transitional step on the way to get there.

westbj2

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2017, 01:55:37 PM »
In the mid 1970's, a friend (Don Allen later of Dakota Arms) developed a sophisticated 3 axis pantagraph that produced very accurate pattern duplicates.  With care on the final passes, it would produce results to within .005".
At the time, John Bivins had just accepted his half of the Penna. Bi-Centennial project and could see the advantage of the Allen machine. Soon he took delivery of one and utilized it to completion of the Bi-Centennial project.
Interestingly, John was very much a traditionalist but referred to the pantagraph as his "mechanical apprentice".

The evolution from a pantagraph to CNC machining is a logical one to apply to gunmaking.  However, this application is only practical if quantity production is a major factor because of the time and effort required to make fixtures, acquire specific tooling and do the programming.

The results of highly skilled efforts on "one-of" objects will always stand on their own merit.....longrifles or otherwise.
Jim Westberg

Offline Joe S.

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2017, 03:20:05 PM »
I started this web site to preserve traditional gun making.   I certainly hope this post doesn't foreshadow a move  into recreating these old guns with modern manufacturing techniques.   To me it just completely defeats the purpose behind the effort, which is devolping process and not producing an end result.  This post makes me very sad.
while I totally agree with you Mark and your vision for what this site is all about but.....I don't see anything wrong with a fellow getting a blank and sending it to a person to have  barrel inletting,ramrod hole drilled and roughed out.Many of us don't have near the tools nor the experience to handle those tasks.Many of the experienced builders here have a lifetime to acquire both while some us late to the party so to say are lucky to get a couple or even one gun built.While that's apples and oranges I hope folks like myself won't be looked down upon for wanting to cut a corner instead of making a pile of expensive firewood.Granted I'm not really talking about CNC produced kits here but I still see a place for them also.I have never been looked down upon either and any and all questions have been answered and some folks have gone way above to help me out,this makes me very appreciative and grateful for this site.So that being said I don't really see where some folks are feeling disrespected for having kit guns however they where made.Like I said before there's some fine rifles being turned out by these kits that otherwise would never be and it's also putting some coin in pockets as well,all good.I would love to have a custom hand built piece built by one the great craftsman here but at this time can't afford it so I will build a semi custom semi hand built piece by this wana be master ;)

Online Keb

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2017, 04:10:01 PM »
It's a big world out there. I think there's a place in it for all of the methods used to do any gun building task. That being said, I say "No thanks" to making or owning a CNC cloned gun. I would think anyone owning one would have to put his special identification mark on it so he could pick it out of a sea of other clones. I can envision the gun racks at big shooting events being full of them in the future. You know, kinda like finding your white Toyota at Wal*mart.

Offline Joe S.

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2017, 04:26:09 PM »
Wow,guess they should wear a yellow powder horn or CNC machine patch on their buckskin jacket as well,to help "identify" them folks.Can't wait for Jim to chime in.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2017, 08:58:26 PM »
I grew up in that Ancient Time when kids actually made stuff themselves.
Admire Roy Underhill but have absolutely nothing at all in common with Norm Abrams
Must be a generational thing.

Offline Joe S.

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2017, 09:31:05 PM »
while I admire the old ways could you imagine building a house or some of the projects Norm built using those ancient ways,while its fun for us to watch they would lose their backsides business wise.I work on some high dollar houses now and some of the stuff I see makes me sick seeing money come before quality.While I love watching old reruns of the millwright shop when he uses fossil tools it just TV one must have atleast one foot it the real world.Like it or not the times are a changing.I hate all this technology stuff too but you can't change it.Instead I try to embrace some of it and atleast understand the need for the rest of it.While I didn't buy a CNC kit the stock I bought was carved on an old dupe machine and I have my hands full making it a hopefully faithful reproduction of a hawken full stock or atleast close.I can also say if Jim Kibler had a full stock hawken kit I would be sending lead down field by now ;D

Offline Joe S.

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2017, 09:37:49 PM »
I'm curious to hear the opinions of some of the rest of folks here that do most of their builds by hand.

Offline PPatch

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2017, 10:08:58 PM »
Nice slideshow Paul, thanks for sharing the CNC techniques, most interesting. Master Jacob Dickert would like to place an order...  :D

In this hobby everyone gets to choose their own building methods, and those methods now include another option - CNC machining.

To each their own, just have fun doing what you do.

dave
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2017, 10:26:06 PM »
Having done this for a few years,  I build primarily from a blank.  It was not always so.  Like I believe MOST start out with "kits" or precarved stocks, until we realize that there are some limitations to using them.
Specific architecture, lock location, barrel channel variations, etc., etc.
Not saying I'll NEVER use another quality precarve upon request, but see no need for my purposes.
Some of the mystery and romance of these guns, is the "I created it with my own hands " aspect of the build.   We learn the finer aspects of the styles we build as we go.  We apprentice so to speak, until we become journeymen. Some go on to become Masters, some not, but that's what we strive for.
How can anyone who is NOT a master of the build, create something with a machine that is master quality work?

Just a thought.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2017, 10:27:13 PM »
Hey Guys,

With a bit of reluctance, I'll give my thoughts on the subject...

There are lots of different approaches to muzzleloading building and that's a good thing.  There are so many different styles, designs, methods etc. and I find many to be appealing.  I've never really understood why some have such narrow, strong opinions of what is good, bad, acceptable, beautiful etc.  I find a top of the line French, Louis the XIV fowling piece by Monte Mandarino to be amazing, but at the same time, absolutely love the work and style Hershel House has developed.  I admire the hand made rifles from Williamsburg, but also love the fine rifles produced by John Bivins using more modern techniques.  I think strong, defensive responses often have their roots at some sort of insecurity.

Another point regarding using technology on longrifles (investment casting, modern gun barrel manufacturing, pantograph gun stock duplicators, cnc stock making etc.) is that the vast majority of people with an interest, do not have the ability, means or perhaps desire to build using traditional methods.  I have been around "traditional" gunbuilding for quite some time, taken a number of classes, taught many, many more and the truth of the matter is that few have the ability to work in this manner.  It's beyond what most can be do.  Building a longrifle is hard, time consuming and difficult work. 

I think that many of those who favor working from a blank could benefit from experience with carefully designed and produced pre-shaped stocks.  I see some work where individuals don't really grasp the flavor of good design and workmanship and could really benefit from working with carefully produced kits.  Personally, I put all I have into my kit design and execution.   Years of hard work and knowledge have become easily accessible.

As has been mentioned, CNC is great for making many copies of one design.  It will never replace custom gunbuilding.  I can assure you developing a cnc stock making process is orders of magnitude more difficult than building a rifle by hand.  But when it's developed, it will produce a fantastic product with incredible repeatability.   You can be sure, if someone can't make a fine rifle by hand, they will have little to no chance of making them with technology.  This is the same old story with muzzleloading parts.  Many producers are not highly skilled gunbuilders.  As a result, many of the commercially available parts are poor quality with lots of issues.  Historically, the producers who make the best commercial parts have also been some of the best custom gun builders.  This applies to locks, stocks or whatever.

Finally, this is progress.  A few have strong feelings about the process used to make a rifle, but for most, the final product is what counts.  What technology does is puts a better product in the hands of more people.  Progress, try to stop it...  You might not like the idea of it, but it's pretty much guaranteed to happen.

From a personal perspective, we have big goals with regards to technology and muzzleloading.  For too long, quality has been an issue.  Low standards have become acceptable. We want to do all I can to move things forward and help traditional muzzleloading grow.  A win, win situation for everyone involved.

All the best,
Jim
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 11:05:25 PM by Jim Kibler »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: CNC Machining a Lancaster stock
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2017, 11:34:06 PM »
Jim,
Thanks, well said. I for one look forward to your and others use of CNC machines to provide us with more historically accurate long rifles and parts. In my mind having access to a wider array of period correct guns and parts will attract more interest to our hobby. The younger more novice builders will have ready access to top notch kits that will allow them to quickly produce top quality long rifles. More experienced builders will enjoy having access to top quality English and French locks without going through the hassle of waiting forever for cast parts and then having to assemble them for use on a period rifle.

I agree that custom stick built guns will not be replaced by CNC produced kits, at least not in our lifetime.
Dennis
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