CNC Machining a Lancaster stock

[Mark Elliott]

I don't begrudge kit makers and commercial parts makers from using such technology.   I spent most of my adult life working in IT automating the office and the factory.  I just hope it doesn't become the way some people approach custom gun making.   I know that CNC equipment is getting cheaper all the time and ending up in hobbyists' shops.    I think the time may come very soon that you can scan an object and turn right around and reproduce in on CNC machinery just like you scan and print a document.   

That said, I would hate us to loose the ability to stock a gun the way it was done before the industrial revolution.    A lot of men dedicated their lives in the 20th century to rediscovering how this was done.   I just don't want their work to be in vain. 
   

[Dennis Glazener]

Mark,
What would Jacob Dickert have to say if he were able to walk into your shop and see you producing period correct work on period correct guns. I suspect he might question how "period correct" your work is (tools/lights/parts etc). My point is that everyone has a different tolerance for how close to the period they chose to work.

I doubt that CNC will have much impact on traditionalist other than access to better parts that they don't have time to make or their customers do not want to pay the extra price for being hand made.
Dennis

[rich pierce]

There's another angle that occurs to me and Jim Kibler touched on it.  One of the challenges for developing builders is having a well built rifle in hand as a guide.  One solution is to buy a custom rifle from a contemporary master.  Nice!  Another is to purchase original, partial or beat up "study pieces". Good to study but not good for anything else.  Now with this Kibler kit you can purchase a kit designed by a master, very close to finished, and finish it, shoot it, AND use it as a study piece.

Same could be said for other top notch kits, but this one as I understand it, is closer to finished dimensions. 

[BOB HILL]

This is very well stated, Jim. Many folks wanting to build and not having access to fine originals or an experienced maker would benefit greatly by starting out with an example in the form of one of the fine kits Jim Chambers has offered for many years and now offered by Jim Kibler. After building one of these, the builder should have an understanding of good architecture and a fine example right at his fingertips as an aid in his next build should he desire to go from a blank. Some are not able to handle great originals and study them. These kits are letting the new builder benefit from the many hours others have spent studying them.............just a few thoughts on this......Bob

[BOB HILL]

Sorry typed and left. Did not read what had been posted while I was gone. It seams many of us share the same feelings........ Bob

[Long John]

I started this web site to preserve traditional gun making.   I certainly hope this post doesn't foreshadow a move  into recreating these old guns with modern manufacturing techniques.   To me it just completely defeats the purpose behind the effort, which is developing process and not producing an end result.  This post makes me very sad.

Mark,

I could not agree with you more!

While I have used CNC manufacturing techniques on the behalf of my clients in my engineering practice, I used those techniques to achieve strictly utilitarian and economic objectives.  I don't believe that CNC manufacturing belongs here.  I have always viewed this site and our product as a place for craft not commercial efficiency.  I recognize that there are some participants here who make their living from building guns.  And since time is money, there is an enormous incentive to cut as much time out of the process of building the "product".  There are bills to pay.  They are free to pursue "happiness" as they choose.

But for the avocational/hobby builder using CNC major components is a repudiation of the craft.  I buy barrels and locks and castings, but so did many of the 18th century gunmakers.   And I find I buy fewer commercially produced components with each gun I build.  I build by hand to honor that craft.  I find far more personal satisfaction and pride in craft when I have made my own ramrod pipes, fore end cap, side plate, trigger, etc. 

I have heard the rationalization that some people "do not have the skills" to build from a blank.  News flash:  No one was born with those skills!  We all had to work to develop them.

I have an acquaintance who shot a 14 point whitetail buck last year.  Far better than anything I've ever shot, that's for sure.  But he was in big box blind, 25 yards from a feeder in a fenced-in, enclosed "preserve" when he shot it.  I look at that mount and it makes me sick.  He cheapened what should have been something very precious.

Best Regards,

John Cholin 

[Scota4570]

CNC is the digital version of the Banchard Lathe and later, pantographs.  The idea has been around or around 200 years.  It's hardly new technology.   It's just better now than then.   

I have one of Jim's kits on order.  I may do a Chambers one in the future.  I have made many stocks from boards, good ones too.  I have only actually touched a couple of original long rifles.  I would love to buy one and copy it.  That gets spendy.  Out here on the left coast nice long rifles are extremely rare.  Building a properly proportioned stock from a 2D picture is not really possible, especially if you have never even touched the real deal. 

I have huge respect for the traditional makers.  Unfortunately, if we were to make that a criteria to participate, then there would be only a couple of people involved. 

The mass manufactured rifles that 98% of folks shoot are absolute junk compared to what guys on this forum make, scratch built or not.  Precarve stocks can be  a stepping stone to true one-of folk art rifles. That is a very good thing.  IT gets people involved who may later bloom into fine gunsmiths.

[grabenkater]

Not all of us have the time to invest nor the skill set to build a rifle from a plank. I am glad that Jim is offering an option for those of us who wish to assemble our own rifle but not have the investment one from a plank would require.It will not diminish the heritage or history in my view, it may very well expand the hobby

[Dennis Glazener]

I don't believe that CNC manufacturing belongs here.  I have always viewed this site and our product as a place for craft not commercial efficiency.  I recognize that there are some participants here who make their living from building guns.

Hmm now you are drawing the line at no CNC machinery to be used to make longrifles and longrifle parts. Am I to assume you cast or forge all your buttplates and trigger guards? Should we keep investment cast parts off the site?

I think that all of us chose to draw the line at different points as far as using new technology. I am friends with Mark Elliott and know him well, I know how much he likes to use early tools/technology but just look at the tool list he posted for a new member: http://www.markelliottva.com/wordpress/2013/12/whats-on-my-bench/ I am not trying to disparage Mark for his use of new technology, just to show where he, probably one of the most traditional builder on this site, draws the line on using modern technology.

We try to stay traditional with the final product not the technology used to produce it. Now if we were judging the final product like Dixon's Gunmaker Fair we would have to exclude CNC made guns but as I understand it they exclude ALL kit guns, duplicated stocks etc.

Not trying to pick a fight with anyone, just trying to point out that everyone draws a line on what technology they are comfortable with.

Dennis   

[Joe S.]

Dennis brings up a good point.I know this crowd is an honorable one with lots of pride in what they do.I wonder if the day comes when somebody trys to slip one by the judges.Even as a joke I would be curious to see how it's handled,this rifles to perfect must be a clone.

[L Meadows]

I can't help but wonder if the true purist,who doesn't like CNC and builds from a blank,forges his own parts,also likes to make his own tools,including files,chisels,planes ect.? This discussion leads way down the rabbit hole,and I can't help but think as a whole it takes away from the already small group of traditional muzzloading shooters. I am 54 years old,and whenever group pictures are posted,everyone seems to be at least my age or older,and then you follow along in " over the back fence" and everyone talks of traditional muzzleloading dying off! We seem to give the impression that if you don't own a 4000.00 rifle that you don't own a "real" long rifle,and for most,including myself,that's out of reach.and don't get me wrong,I would love to have one of these rifles,but Jim Kiblers kit is a whole lot closer to being realistic for ME in both cost and ability to assembly,notice I did not say BUILD! Maybe it would make everyone happier if it was broken down into whether it was built or assembled. Maybe in the end we are our own worst enemies!

[flinchrocket]

Did anyone see the pictures of Rice Barrel Co. in the American Tradition? Are we going to stop using Rice Barrels because they use CNC machinery? I don't think so! A stock is no different.                               
   

[Bob Roller]

Hey Guys,

With a bit of reluctance, I'll give my thoughts on the subject...

There are lots of different approaches to muzzleloading building and that's a good thing.  There are so many different styles, designs, methods etc. and I find many to be appealing.  I've never really understood why some have such narrow, strong opinions of what is good, bad, acceptable, beautiful etc.  I find a top of the line French, Louis the XIV fowling piece by Monte Mandarino to be amazing, but at the same time, absolutely love the work and style Hershel House has developed.  I admire the hand made rifles from Williamsburg, but also love the fine rifles produced by John Bivins using more modern techniques.  I think strong, defensive responses often have their roots at some sort of insecurity.

Another point regarding using technology on longrifles (investment casting, modern gun barrel manufacturing, pantograph gun stock duplicators, cnc stock making etc.) is that the vast majority of people with an interest, do not have the ability, means or perhaps desire to build using traditional methods.  I have been around "traditional" gunbuilding for quite some time, taken a number of classes, taught many, many more and the truth of the matter is that few have the ability to work in this manner.  It's beyond what most can be do.  Building a longrifle is hard, time consuming and difficult work. 

I think that many of those who favor working from a blank could benefit from experience with carefully designed and produced pre-shaped stocks.  I see some work where individuals don't really grasp the flavor of good design and workmanship and could really benefit from working with carefully produced kits.  Personally, I put all I have into my kit design and execution.   Years of hard work and knowledge have become easily accessible.

As has been mentioned, CNC is great for making many copies of one design.  It will never replace custom gunbuilding.  I can assure you developing a cnc stock making process is orders of magnitude more difficult than building a rifle by hand.  But when it's developed, it will produce a fantastic product with incredible repeatability.   You can be sure, if someone can't make a fine rifle by hand, they will have little to no chance of making them with technology.  This is the same old story with muzzleloading parts.  Many producers are not highly skilled gunbuilders.  As a result, many of the commercially available parts are poor quality with lots of issues.  Historically, the producers who make the best commercial parts have also been some of the best custom gun builders.  This applies to locks, stocks or whatever.

Finally, this is progress.  A few have strong feelings about the process used to make a rifle, but for most, the final product is what counts.  What technology does is puts a better product in the hands of more people.  Progress, try to stop it...  You might not like the idea of it, but it's pretty much guaranteed to happen.

From a personal perspective, we have big goals with regards to technology and muzzleloading.  For too long, quality has been an issue.  Low standards have become acceptable. We want to do all I can to move things forward and help traditional muzzleloading grow.  A win, win situation for everyone involved.

All the best,
Jim

"Low standards have become acceptable." It's been that way for years with muzzle loaders by the fact it had been driven to
that level by a mindset that has dictated ANYthing for a muzzle loader MUST be cheap no matter how finely it's made.
This creates an appeal to those who live in a distressed market in all venues no matter what the item(s) are or were.
Thanks to you for your stunning efforts to make a quality kit available with top notch parts and beautiful appearance.
I am NOT a good gun builder and never claimed to be.With the exception of the Whitworth/Henry style long range rifle
from 2001,ALL the rifles (10)I think and pistols(4) were made from sawed blanks.Half of the rifles were made with hand
inlet barrels and the rest with a milling machine running full speed.They looked OK but were NOT exceptional by any standard.
 
Bob Roller

[Scota4570]

It surprizes that locks are not being produced with CNC equipment.  Between that and Metal Injection Molding (MIM) a top quality lock could be produced at an affordable price. 

Molding sounds cheasie, until you look at a Smith and Wesson revolver.  Nothing cheap about them, the newer ones have many MIM parts. 

[Jim Kibler]

I sure do appreciate all of the thoughtful responses.  This sort of reminds me of a Woodwrights Shop episode which I believe was titled "Rise of the Machines".  I recall him mentioning how all the late 19th century machines caused a scare among some.  I seem to remember him showing books written by traditional minded craftsman who tried to create all the mystique they could about their craft due to the threat.  Progress is nothing new...

I certainly think any approach to longrifle building has it's place.  For me it never has really mattered how I get there, rather the finished product is what has counted most.  I just got back from teaching two weeks of longrifle building using traditional techniques.  I'm pretty sure everyone had a great time and learned a lot.  So, you can be sure I'm not against more historical methods. 

If we can help traditional muzzleloading progress and make a comfortable living in the process it will be a win, win for everyone involved.  As many have mentioned, stocking a rifle from a blank isn't for everyone.  Heck, the first rifle I built was from an old CVA kit I found in my Grandparents house.  If I hadn't had that experience, there's a good chance I'd not be doing any of this.

Thanks again, everyone. 

Bob Roller,
I saw one of your locks at the seminar I just came from and was super impressed with your internal mechanism.  I could tell a lot of care went into it.

All the best,
Jim

 

[oldtravler61]

  My last 2 cents. It's what YOU want to do. There is a place in gun building for all of us. But please don't chastise what someone else is doing.I wish people who have no CNC experience would try an do what Jim has done. It was not easy.I build mine from a plank because I want to period. If my boss said yeah get one of Jim's kits. I'd be on it like a duck on a June bug. An like Dennis said because of there work there bringing more people to this!! Ok I'm done ranting so lighten up. Fees Oldtravler aka Mike S

[Smoketown]

All a CNC does is remove MOST of the wood, it DOESN’T build the rifle!

Buy five Chambers or Kibler “kits”, give one to me and give one each to “insert 4 top builders here” and compare what you get. 

The top builders (many on this forum) have FAR surpassed many of “The Masters”.   

Cheers,
Smoketown
(One more Jim B.)

[Bob Roller]

I sure do appreciate all of the thoughtful responses.  This sort of reminds me of a Woodwrights Shop episode which I believe was titled "Rise of the Machines".  I recall him mentioning how all the late 19th century machines caused a scare among some.  I seem to remember him showing books written by traditional minded craftsman who tried to create all the mystique they could about their craft due to the threat.  Progress is nothing new...

I certainly think any approach to longrifle building has it's place.  For me it never has really mattered how I get there, rather the finished product is what has counted most.  I just got back from teaching two weeks of longrifle building using traditional techniques.  I'm pretty sure everyone had a great time and learned a lot.  So, you can be sure I'm not against more historical methods. 

If we can help traditional muzzleloading progress and make a comfortable living in the process it will be a win, win for everyone involved.  As many have mentioned, stocking a rifle from a blank isn't for everyone.  Heck, the first rifle I built was from an old CVA kit I found in my Grandparents house.  If I hadn't had that experience, there's a good chance I'd not be doing any of this.

Thanks again, everyone. 

Bob Roller,
I saw one of your locks at the seminar I just came from and was super impressed with your internal mechanism.  I could tell a lot of care went into it.

All the best,
Jim

[Bob Roller]

I'm always somewhat surprised when these topics come up at the resistance toward a cnc kit gun. On one hand people are constantly talking about what to do to get people involved in shooting long rifles,but scorn anyone who seems to buy one. I realize there are a lot of talented gun builders on this site,but most aren't,either because of lack of talent,lack of funds for purchase of tools to build such a gun,or time involved. Kit guns offer people like myself,who have limited skills and equipment,to build and enjoy a gun they have pride in. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a custom three thousand dollar rifle,and im sure they are worth every penny,and I'm also sure the builder doesn't make a ton of money at that price,but why the scorn of owning a kit gun? We already have categories for antique and contemporary rifles,looks like we will soon judge a rifle as to whether it was built from a blank or milled on a cnc machine,with the blank build being more desirable. If it really matters to build from a blank,then why not go all the way and build every component from scratch?

My locks all have "scratch built" mechanisms and always have been that way. It took me years to get them "refined" to
what I make today. Mould injected parts have been around for years. The first I heard of it was Ruger's use of them.
I had a new S&W Model 27,a fine piece of work from their "Classic" series. Traded it for one made in 1970.
Years ago,probably close to 40,Lynton McKenzie told me of a set of moulds made in Switzerland to reproduce the fine
"4 pin" locks of the Brazier family. The cost of these moulds would make a rich man look twice and long and when
the VERY limited market is considered the idea was cancelled. I bench craft these and have 4 to make now if I want
to do it. I know some parts for muzzle loaders look like they were made in a mould made from PlayDo or mud and then there are
others like the superb breech from Rod England for the Alex Henry that started with the late Don Brown.
The market will drive or reject what is offered to the VERY limited field of muzzle loaders and so far what is now available
is working. The Chambers locks are IMHO better than many that were used back when the long rifle was "IT".
L&R needs to tighten up the internal dimensions in their locks and that means making or modifying existing tooling.
Last year at the CLA Show I looked at Jim Kibler's long rifles and kits and was more than impressed and I publicly thank him for his
comment on the lock he recently saw of my make. My wife and our guest,a retired art teacher were impressed with Jim's work as
well.This type of gun making will put more long rifles into the hands of those who can't scratch build one and it will be a big help
to others that can scratch build and haven't the time for such a job.Jim and Barby,Jim Kibler and Rod England are to be commended
and I wish them ALL every possible success.

Bob Roller

[Kingsburyarms]

Very interesting conversation - after being in this hobby for about a year or so, there would have been no way I could have started without a kit that was started/designed for me (Chambers). This coming from someone that was raised in a "Build it yourself" family and father that was an engineer. I have the honor to be close enough to David Price to actually see, hold, fire and learn about what these rifles look like when finished, but without that, there would have been a learning curve way too steep to achieve. If I just started based on a few books and some tools without a mentor or being an apprentice to a master, I would have learned very bad practices and probably just gave up.

Jim Kibler/Jim Chambers kits help me get my hands on something that is measurable, attainable and will actually work when I'm finished with it. One day, I will get to the point that I can make one from a blank. I will never have the equipment or skill to make barrels, locks and pour castings for Brass or steel furniture.

I am trying to get my teenage boys involved, but they have no interest at all to do anything "by hand" unless it's a computer game. I think any technology that opens doors to the next generation, then that it would be a great thing. 

Jon

[deepcreekdale]

What a great thread. I think we all agree there is room for everybody and their methods here. Those of us that are a little older, probably grew up as kids building things we wanted more often than not. (I will never forget seeing my first "store bought" skateboard, ie one not made of roller skates stolen from your sister.) I have a picture my dad took of me in the 1950's building an old PYRO Lexington flintlock pistol plastic model kit while lying on the living room floor. Many of us also had shop classes in school and learned woodworking, welding and basic metal working skills. I built my first real muzzleloader from a CVA kit in the 1970's while in the service and while it did get me hooked, the quality was not that great so building from a blank and parts from DGW was pretty much the only way to go. For myself, building from a blank is more satisfying, like many others here, I buy the barrel, the lock and some furniture. Recently I have learned to form iron furniture on a coal forge. Tons of fun and also very satisfying. I enjoy inletting barrels and locks, and it really doesn't take that long either.  Everything else, ramrod pipes, triggers etc I make by hand, simply for personal satisfaction and because I like the warmth of handmade pieces. I am fortunate to be able to sell all that I build and have quite a backlog. Sure wish I could retire from the "real job." That said, I recently ordered one of Jim Kibler's kits  because building one like that looks like fun and I know it will be a beautiful piece and that gun will be for me to shoot. So, I just want to add my 2 cents that it matters less HOW you build that gun and more that you ARE building that gun.

[oldtravler61]

   If you really think about it. Back in the day.. I am quite certain that the gun builders then would use any new product. To produce their guns an materials.  Back then there tool's we're the latest an greatest. Until they made or invented something to improve there work. Just like now. Pretty sure if they would of had it. They would have used it. Unfortunately there all gone an there not talking. Ok back under my rock I go. Mike S