Author Topic: Mystery Gun  (Read 6295 times)

fishlein

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Mystery Gun
« on: January 30, 2017, 01:35:45 AM »

Greetings Fellow Blackpowder Guys and Gals!

I am new to this site so please excuse my clumsiness. It has taken me most of the day to figure out how to add pictures to a post… And I am not sure they will show when I hit "Post."

Anyway – I have a mystery gun I would like some input on. It’s an unfinished Hawken I purchased used on-line from Numrich Arms. They had no additional info on it. I took it to Track of the Wolf and we figured a few things out. I have stripped the gun – it has no markings other than the lock. See below.
Gun in question;
Hawken halfstock stocked in low to mid-range maple.
58 caliber octagon barrel that is 28 7/8 inches long with hooked breech and 8 grooves/lands.
Barrel is tapered from 1 1/8 to 1 inch.
Distinctive toeplate.
Big ugly unfinished patch box – no spring and open hole for latch/grip.
Ron Long Lock – [marked]
L&R trigger [unmarked but obvious to Track of the Wolf guys]
All iron “in-the-white” furniture.

The gun is a mix of very good workmanship as in much of the inletting and very good staking of barrel lugs and dovetails for sights. Some of the wood fitting/inletting is not so good. It leads me to believe it was a semi-finished “kit” from some high end company or individual.
Ideas? Any info would be appreciated.

Mike
















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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Mystery Gun
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2017, 02:09:15 AM »






Not sure how you made little pics.  There's how I do it.

Definitely a gun in the white.  Look up Herb's postings and make it look more like his'ns.  :P  I am no scholar of that style yet.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Mystery Gun
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2017, 02:22:26 AM »
Looks like a pretty good gun to me. I've seen far far worse.
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Offline PPatch

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Re: Mystery Gun
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2017, 03:08:28 AM »
Looks like one of the plains rifle reproductions, can't say who's it is. The metal needs finishing, the lock hammer, and triggers, the trigger guard filed and finished. Looks rather thick all over, wood needs some shaping, those lock panels need it too. Looks too like it has a crack in the wood of the toe, that should be repaired. In short, it will make a pretty decent hunting rifle with some work.

Here is a link to Taylor Sapergia's Hawken tutorial; http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=37886.0

As has been mentioned Herb on this forum also has some great info on the Hawken style.

Herb: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=39466.0

Read all you can and then tackle the gun.

dave
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fishlein

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Re: Mystery Gun
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2017, 04:13:40 AM »
That's for the info and the redirect to specific info. Keep it up.

I already stabilized the crack and am ready to tackle the finish and cleanup of this. Decided to do more research on it's origin before I changed the looks any more since I am curious of where it came from. I intend to use this one to tackle a Montana elk this fall if the lottery tag gods are good to me.

Mike

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Mystery Gun
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2017, 10:06:35 AM »
...I have a mystery gun I would like some input on. It’s an unfinished Hawken I purchased used on-line from Numrich Arms. They had no additional info on it. I took it to Track of the Wolf and we figured a few things out.
Gun in question;
Hawken halfstock stocked in low to mid-range maple.
58 caliber octagon barrel that is 28 7/8 inches long with hooked breech and 8 grooves/lands.
Barrel is tapered from 1 1/8 to 1 inch.
Distinctive toeplate.
Big ugly unfinished patch box – no spring and open hole for latch/grip.
Ron Long Lock – [marked]
L&R trigger [unmarked but obvious to Track of the Wolf guys]
All iron “in-the-white” furniture.

...It leads me to believe it was a semi-finished “kit” from some high end company or individual.
Ideas? Any info would be appreciated.

Mike

Mike,

These mystery guns can be fun and frustrating trying to figure out their origin.

I don't think your rifle was "a semi-finished 'kit' from some high end company".  Many of the component parts date back to the 1970's.  I've studied guns from the companies producing Hawken rifles back then including GRRW, Sharon Rifle Barrel Co, Ithaca Gun Co, Western Arms/Uberti, Ozark Mountain Arms, and The Hawken Shop.  Your rifle has elements that are different from the guns each of these companies produced.

Ron Long started producing his Hawken lock in late 1974 or early 1975 and sold the business in December 1981.  GRRW used Ron Long locks almost as soon as they became available, but GRRW bought the cast parts from Long and assembled the locks in the GRRW shop.  I've yet to see a GRRW Hawken with a lock that had Long's stamp on it.  Most have no markings.  Your rifle could date back to the 1970's, but it could also be more recent.  I've seen a number of Long's lock for sale on eBay over the years, so there are still a number of his unused locks floating around out there.

The breech plug on your rifle is recognizable as one that GRRW used some, so it also dates back to the 1970's.  It was also available from TOTW as late as the 1990's.

Ozark Mountain Arms and Sharon used L&R triggers, but both companies made their rifles and kits with 1" straight octagon barrels and used different breech plugs and trigger guards.  Sharon used the version of L&R triggers that had a curved front trigger, also.

The butt plate is nondescript and available from a number of sources.

A similar patch box was available in the 1970's and is still available from Muzzleloader Builder's Supply.

Tapered barrels were available from GRRW, but their barrels had 7 land/grooves.  Not many other companies offered them in the 70's, as they weren't as popular as they are now.  The barrel is the one part that might suggest a more recent build.

The trigger guard is the most intriguing part of your rifle.  It is not the typical cast guard that was/is commercially available.  It looks like a custom piece to me.  There were some small companies back in the 1980's and 1990's that offered some forged butt plates and trigger guards.  I wonder if that might be the source of your guard.

My guess is that your rifle was assembled from component parts available from a number of different sources from the 1970's through the 1990's.  It could have been started anytime in that period.  Your statement about a mix of very good and not so good workmanship suggests that more than one person has worked on the rifle over they years.  This is not that uncommon.  I've seen a number of rifles that were only partially completed and then passed on to another builder.  Sometimes they were started by an amateur then finished by a more skilled and knowledgeable person.  Sometimes it was the other way around.

The biggest issue I see with the rifle, as is, are the dome head bolts and screws.  They should be replaced with flat head ones.
Phil Meek

fishlein

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Re: Mystery Gun
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2017, 06:27:53 PM »
Thanks Phil - that's the type of info I am looking for.

See attached [hopefully] picture of the unique toeplate - haven't found an example of this in any current catalog/websites. Small part of the gun but does it mean anything?

This could be a prime example of some one loosing interest in a project but I also wonder why they gave up when the gun was almost shootable. The only functional problem the gun had was that the trigger backlash didn't hold the hammer at full cock. A couple touches with a file and it does - I have shot the gun. Still need to play around to get the "set" function to work.

Thanks again.

Note that if you click on the small pictures they get bigger.

Mike

[[IMGP8677.jpg]http://(https://postimg.org/image/i0y2izlq7/)][/img]

fishlein

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Re: Mystery Gun
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2017, 06:33:40 PM »
[https://s19.postimg.org/ccrrs3hdv/IMGP8677.jpg][/img]

Maybe I got the picture itself attached this time - maybe not. The link does work,  $%^&*()

Mike

Offline PPatch

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Re: Mystery Gun
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2017, 07:04:14 PM »
[https://s19.postimg.org/ccrrs3hdv/IMGP8677.jpg][/img]

Maybe I got the picture itself attached this time - maybe not. The link does work,  $%^&*()

Mike

Mike; your photograph tagging is a bit off, that first one should be [img]

dave
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fishlein

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Re: Mystery Gun
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2017, 07:16:44 PM »
[/url][/img]

Trying picture again - hoping to get it right.

If this doesn't work I would appreciate a tip - I have looked at all the tutorials and threads on this issue.

Mike

fishlein

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Re: Mystery Gun
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2017, 08:08:23 PM »

ron w

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Re: Mystery Gun
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2017, 02:14:37 AM »
it might be a rifle assembled from parts right from Numrich. what they have today is different than what they had then, their muzzle loader parts inventory was better years ago, I know that for sure and their inventory changes all the time, so it might be pretty hard to actually nail down it's true origin.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Mystery Gun
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2017, 08:17:10 PM »
That rifle appears to be a well build piece.  with the stock and metal finished it will look very nice.
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fishlein

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Re: Mystery Gun
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2017, 05:36:56 PM »
I hope so. Just completed a flint fowler with parts from TOW. Made a lot of little mistakes in inletting and metal work but someone took care of those already for me on this rifle. The fowler looks very nice unless you really look hard. And since it will get beat up wandering the woods here in Minnesota it doesn't matter much. It even shoots!

Thanks everyone for the comments.

Mike

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Mystery Gun
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2017, 04:14:09 AM »
[/url][/img]

Trying picture again - hoping to get it right.

If this doesn't work I would appreciate a tip - I have looked at all the tutorials and threads on this issue.

Mike

I get the URL of the image on the page, then "wrap" it in image tags.  "Wrap" means place the proper image tags before and after the URL.   I get the URL onto the page by "viewing" the exact photo, then copying the URL from the address bar.  I paste that URL, then double-click to highlight/select it.  Once selected, I then click on the IMAGE button up top there.  Clicking on the IMAGE button places/wraps the URL with the proper image tags.  Done.

The Image button is the first one in the second row above.  It's directly below the "B" button for bold type face, which is just left of the "I" for italics button. 

Tags for HTML are always used in pairs (as far as I know), or else the odd one will be ignored (and shown), and the function won't apply.  Used in pairs they don't appear, but the desired effect/process does.  The "end" tag is usually the same as the initial tag, but with "/" in front of it.  I read "/" as "end".  I'm no HTML expert, just learned enough to get by.  ;) 

HTH!  (hope that helps)

Should look like this but for the matched carrots where matched brackets would go. (in order to keep them visible):
        <img> <url> theActualURLforYerPIC </url> </img>
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 04:22:05 AM by WadePatton »
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