Author Topic: 1810 firearm question.  (Read 6509 times)

Jammin Jim

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1810 firearm question.
« on: April 10, 2009, 08:48:12 PM »
I'm new to the site, and if I posted this in the wrong area please let me know. Maybe someone can help me find which type of firearm a free trapper in 1810 might have carried.  I am just getting started in the Mountain man Rendezvous reenactments and I am a perfectionist so want some ideas of what firearms someone would have carried into the Rocky mountains during the period from 1810-1820.

Thanks.

Jim

Offline T*O*F

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Re: 1810 firearm question.
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2009, 12:06:37 AM »
Quote
Maybe someone can help me find which type of firearm a free trapper in 1810 might have carried.

The correct answer is A.  Any firearm made before 1810.  That's my final answer as there are no other choices.
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Offline Stophel

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Re: 1810 firearm question.
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2009, 12:12:41 AM »
Look at some of the Henry rifles made for the western trade.  That's a good place to start.

And I'll second TOF.  Whatever was made before then.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Sean

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Re: 1810 firearm question.
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2009, 01:40:51 AM »
If you're a white guy, a flintlock rifle.   Brass or iron mountings is dependent on where you are from, but brass is much more common.  If brass it likely has some engraving.  Might have some carving, might not.  42-48" barrel, probably somewhere from .42-.50 cal.  If you're Metis or Iroquois, then likely a NW gun.  If you are Shawnee, Delaware, Cherokee, or other tribe that was being displaced to the Mississippi Valley frontier, you could carry either, but more likely a rifle.

Next question...  What's a free trapper?   ;)

Sean

J.D.

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Re: 1810 firearm question.
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2009, 04:20:55 AM »
If you're a white guy, a flintlock rifle.   Brass or iron mountings is dependent on where you are from, but brass is much more common.  If brass it likely has some engraving.  Might have some carving, might not.  42-48" barrel, probably somewhere from .42-.50 cal.  If you're Metis or Iroquois, then likely a NW gun.  If you are Shawnee, Delaware, Cherokee, or other tribe that was being displaced to the Mississippi Valley frontier, you could carry either, but more likely a rifle.

Next question...  What's a free trapper?   ;)

Sean

A free trapper is one that doesn't get paid.  :D

Like others said, about anything made prior to 1810 will do nicely. To be  more specific, Lancaster style rifles fairly were popular in the NDN trade. A Virginia style rifle will work too, presumably made by a VA gunsmith moving west with the tide of immigration. Or an early TN rifle, like the Bogle or Whale gun, so there is a wide range of choices.

Offline Curt J

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Re: 1810 firearm question.
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2009, 05:05:57 AM »
Or....A rifle by one of the two very best on the frontier, John Small, who was working in Vincennes, Indiana by 1790; or Philip Creamer, who came from Maryland to the "Commonfields of Prairie DuPont", in St. Clair County, Illinois in 1805. Both of these early Midwestern gunsmiths were masters of the trade, and certainly provided rifles for trappers of that period.

Jammin Jim

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Re: 1810 firearm question.
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2009, 04:17:45 PM »
Thanks all! You have helped in my quest...

Sean, a free trapper was an individual who did not work for the fur trading companies (IE. Hudson's Bay, American Fur, and others) but rather was basically what we would call an independent contractor.  about as free an agent as a man can be.  No one to tell him (or her) where to go what to do or not do. 

Jim

Sean

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Re: 1810 firearm question.
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2009, 08:37:34 PM »
Ah, you mean an Indian.   ;)  Sorry.  Just joshing with you.  Everybody who does western stuff these days want to be a free trapper.  It sounds so romantic and drips with western individualism.  The truth is that most of the white guys worked for the companies, and most of the people who were really 'on their own hook' were displaced eastern Indians, like the Shawnee and Delaware.  The SW prior to the mid 1830s was sort of an exception to that, but it was still mostly brigade-based trapping where the white guys often hired on with folks like Ewing Young or the Roubideaus.  There were a few guys plying the Missouri River country but by the time Lisa and Pilcher come around, its mostly company stuff unless you're an Indian.  Your answer to your question will come primarily from how you develop your persona, but most guys pretty much wing that without doing much reading.  Give it some thought and try to figure out who might have realistically been there.  Then ask what they might have brought with them or purchased in the trade. 

Hanson's book 'The Northwest Gun' has some info on trade rifles from that period.  A lot of these were produced as treaty payments to the displaced tribes, but they were also the same sorts of things that were being shipped into St. Louis for sale to whites and Indians alike.  Curt has a lot of knowledge about Midwestern makers and folks like Creamer would be an option.  Curt may correct me here, but most of the stuff I've seen of Creamer's was upper end stuff.  I think during the 1800-1840 period, the Lancaster, Philly, and Hagerstown gunmakers were putting out everyday guns so cheaply that the Midwestern makers like Creamer and Hawken had to focus on specialty stuff to compete.

My $0.02.

Sean

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: 1810 firearm question.
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2009, 10:28:21 PM »
re: Creamer - he did supply to the fur trade via the traders Bryan & Morrison of Cahokia and Kaskaskia who in turn outfitted much of Manuel Lisa's 1809 expedition so Creamer's rifles may very well have been part of that expedition since Lisa outfitted his free trappers with rifles.

re: free trappers - there were in fact two levels of free trappers in the trade and this has always been a source for confusion:
1) Skin Trappers (Joe Meek's term): these were the men who were grubstaked by the company in return for a share of their catch - thus they were not completely independent, but neither were they employees of the company- they were rather analogous to sub-contractors. This type of free trapper can be documented for both HBC and the Americans, and is the type associated with the Manuel Lisa Expedition (see Thomas James' Journal) and the first Ashley-Henry Expedition (per Thomas Hampstead's letter).

2) Trappers on their own hook (G. F. Ruxton's term): these are what we today so often consider free trappers. According to all period documentation they were the smallest percentage of all trappers, never being more than 10% at most of the  overall number of men in the field - many of whom were not even trappers but rather camp keepers and other such employees of the companies. Men on their own hook would include Bill Williams, who often trapped on his own but would also at times hook up with larger company brigades for various reasons such as safety in numbers when entering areas known to be hostile. Most of these trappers on their own hook were a larger component of those worked the Central and Southern Rockies where while there were some hostiles they were far fewer in number and less influenced by the Brits as was the norm in the Northern Rockies where Bugs Boys, the Blackfoot, held sway untilt he late 1830's when small pox almost wiped them out.

Two of the most prominent early Pennsylvania builders who sold to the western market were Dickert, later Dickert and Gill, and Deringer.

One final word - when considering the western fur trade, remember while there was a flurry of American activity going up the Missouri after 1807 it pretty well ended in 1812. During the War of 1812 (1812-1815) and for some time after, there was little fur trade business going on in the west by the Americans because of the war and the hostility of the tribes allied with the British. Astor's American fur after a brief foray west in 1810-12, didn't start going up the Missouri again until 1818 and the Santa Fe trade was practically nil until 1822 (prior to that you usually wound up in a Spanish prison for years), the same year Ashley took his first group to the Northern Rockies.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 10:33:15 PM by ChuckBurrows »
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Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: 1810 firearm question.
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2009, 03:19:48 AM »
Its post 1810, and may not exactly apply to trappers on their own hook, but reguarding Henry and Ashley, on their initial try up the Missouri, when they lost a keel boat full of supplies including guns, Ashley rounded up what ever he could, reoutfitted and personally captained a replacement boat up river in remarkable time...to me this may imply that either there were tons of guns available in St.Louis at the time (maybe he even got ahold of left over war surplus arms??) or that he took an assortment of whatever he could get because I dont believe that he waited around to place and fill any custom orders...not to mention that at least two other big outfits were recently outfitted or in the act of outfitting for similar expiditions out of St.Louis as well.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: 1810 firearm question.
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2009, 05:26:21 AM »
I'm new to the site, and if I posted this in the wrong area please let me know. Maybe someone can help me find which type of firearm a free trapper in 1810 might have carried.  I am just getting started in the Mountain man Rendezvous reenactments and I am a perfectionist so want some ideas of what firearms someone would have carried into the Rocky mountains during the period from 1810-1820.

Thanks.

Jim

A flintlock Kentucky rifle of 45 caliber or larger of ANY period to 1820. I would go with a 50 caliber myself very "typical". In America there wasn't really anything else. A 1792 contract rifle that you kept when you deserted, indian contract rifle of the same period. There are a host of possibilities.
Thus a Rev war rifle would be perfectly acceptable since they were still in service at the time. At least a lot of them got converted to percussion at an even later date.
Getting "perfectionist" in your recreation will eventually make you and others miserable.
There is no "perfect". Keep your outfit minimalist, they did, just stuff common at the time.
Use a horn that will hold a pound of powder would be a good idea.

Dan
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