Author Topic: cleaning problem  (Read 14556 times)

Offline Dphariss

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2017, 04:28:50 AM »
You guys sure do it the hard way.

Heh! Heh! Thanks.
People need to remember that the components of BP fouling that cause problems are very soluble in water and will suck up water and wash away. Just be sure to use enough to get the fouling out, use something like windex if you are afraid there is something really stuck in there. Most of time or maybe always, a bore that shows clean with a water wet patch is clean. If it then shows black as its being dried then it is likely iron oxide being rubbed off the bare steel of the bore. Because that steel is REALLY clean right now. Or possibly, remotely perhaps, some graphite, the graphite I have been told does not break down or burn in this context so it might be part of the problem.

Dan
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2017, 09:05:41 PM »
To expand on Dan's comments on graphite.

After the black powder is screened in the powder plant any graphite coating serves no useful purpose.  Graphite coating powder grains is done mainly to increasing the screening rates during powder production.  A graphite coating in no way protects powder grains from moisture in the air.

Different powder manufacturers use different amounts of graphite on their powders.  This difference is easily seen if you dropm measured amounts of powder in glasses of water and stir the water.  The graphite will ride on the surface of the water.

Graphite does not burn until the temperature reaches about 2,000 degrees and then burns only slowly.  Powder combustion temperatures, in the gun, do not go high enough to ignite the graphite so it ends up mixed in with the powder combustion residue in the bore.

Once in the bore the graphite is rather difficult to remove.  It is hydrophobic in nature.  Meaning "water hating".  Only certain types of soap will cause it to suspend in any water used to clean the bore.  The graphite also tends to bond to the barrel steel.  This is why graphite had once seen wide use as a dry lubricant in industrial applications where two metal parts would be rubbing on each other but at a low velocity.  When auto speedometers were a cable in a housing it was common to lube the cable with graphite and this might be done again periodically as you used the car.  When the speedometer cable would drag due to lack of lubrication the speedometer needle would be bouncing around on the dial.

If you go back around 1998 to 2000 you would see posting on ML boards about "socking" the black powder to remove graphite and powder dust from the black powders then on the market.  Removing the gross excess of graphite from some powders made gun cleaning a lot easier.

Offline hanshi

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2017, 09:37:40 PM »
I believe, Mad Monk, that Goex has graphite; though I really don't know.  The proprietary "Jacks Battle Powder" made by Goex has an appearance that leads me to think it does not have graphite.  I like Goex and have burned a lot of it but I think I like JBP even more.  Are these assumptions correct?
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2017, 10:52:40 PM »
I believe, Mad Monk, that Goex has graphite; though I really don't know.  The proprietary "Jacks Battle Powder" made by Goex has an appearance that leads me to think it does not have graphite.  I like Goex and have burned a lot of it but I think I like JBP even more.  Are these assumptions correct?

It has been some time since I looked at GOEX production.  That produced at the old Moosic plant had what I would consider a gross excess of graphite.  When I would break the powder down in water it always produced a large amount of graphite floating on the top of the water. The "Jacks Battle Powder" I think is a fireworks lifting charge powder but I never had any to do a good look.  Since I got out of the powder testing thing I don't get to see the odd ones since the gunshop handles only regular GOEX and Swiss.

If you want to look at it simply take small glasses and break equal amounts of powder in the glasses with plain tap water.  Then watch what floats on top of the water after a bit of stirring of the water.

Another thing I ought to do is hit the work bench for a brass wire brush and look at it on steel.  After reading this thread I seemed to recall that years ago I looked at this and seem to recall that when I would use a brass wire brush on steel it would leave a grey-black residue on the steel. The film did not look like brass metal.

Heavies

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2017, 11:35:25 PM »
Been following this interesting thread.

As far as I know graphite powder is a neutral substance who's residue wouldn't harm the steel.

I am thinking brass polishings, such as mentioned, would also leave a black residue, also neutral in nature, and wouldn't harm the steel.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2017, 12:14:55 AM »
Been following this interesting thread.

As far as I know graphite powder is a neutral substance who's residue wouldn't harm the steel.

I am thinking brass polishings, such as mentioned, would also leave a black residue, also neutral in nature, and wouldn't harm the steel.

You are correct in that graphite will not harm steel.  It is just that most shooters look at how clean the bore is by looking for any discoloration on a cleaning patch that has been run down the bore.

This sort of goes back to the days when it was claimed that most of the bore fouling from black powder was charcoal that had not been burned during powder combustion so it had to be removed for a truly clean bore.

Heavies

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2017, 12:24:18 AM »
In my cleaning, I have been cleaning with tap water and a small dab of dish soap. Pump the barrel until water seems clean, then patch that out, which usually only takes a few patches until clean. Then a ballistol water (~5:1) to swab.  Then dry, then straight ballistol to protect.

I don't see any rust.  After a few days I check again.  Looking down the bore looks like a whitish residue. Inside the bore, but no rust.  Is that good or bad?

Sorry don't mean to hijack the thread, just thought it may apply here.

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2017, 05:21:00 AM »
I don't use anything but plain water to clean with (except in freezing weather than I use alchohol). I oil the bore and lube patches with bear oil. I do believe the bear oil seasons them some. I ALWAYS clean in the field immediately after a match or hunt. I never bring a dirty rifle home. Last match I shot about 30 rounds with no wiping between shots and got a clean bore after about 8 patches. I do have to use a scraper on the breech plug a good bit on this little .40 first though. Could that be your problem, fouling hanging out on the breech plug face? Is your jag cupped on the end? If I make a jag I leave it flat on the end so the patch goes full against the breech. If I use one of those store bought jags I fill the cup with solder and file it off flush.

I did have a similar problem once and finally figured out that the solvent I was using (Hoppes #9) was disolving the never seize compound I had put on the breech plug threads and the patch was sucking it out into the bore. I quit using solvent and stopped getting the black.
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Offline hanshi

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2017, 12:07:08 AM »
Some time ago I found that the cleanest breech face came when I pushed a damp patch into the breech then used the scraper to turn and twist the patch.  It seems to get into the recesses better.  I do often use the scraper at the range but back home I like the patch method.
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Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2017, 12:11:49 AM »
Try it, you'll like it and never go back to patches and brushes.  Tutorial:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24312.0
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 12:13:29 AM by Nate McKenzie »

Offline Natureboy

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2017, 12:17:08 AM »
  I use tow on a worm to scrub the face of the breech plug.

Offline Marcruger

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2017, 01:51:02 AM »
A few thoughts.....

I always use a flat-face brass scraper on the end of my rod first before anything wet goes in the bore of a flat breech flintlock.  It scraps the hard gradeau loose from the breechface.  I turn the rifle muzzle down and tap lightly to get the crud to drop out.  Why get it out the hard way?

A flush kit is a great thing, and simplifies cleanout.  TOW sells a good flush kit.  They have them for flinters and cap shooters. 

I use water to clean out my barrel initially.

If I've forgotten my flush kit, I plug the touch-hole with a toothpick and trap a patch with the pick under the frizzen.  The patch catches any minor drool.  I then pour water down the barrel and let it sit a while, then slosh it back and forth.  I then repeat it.  You get lots of fouling out that way.  I then go to wet patches until they come out clean.  Sometimes quickly, sometimes not. 

Often you'll see black streaks on the patch.  Look to see if the streaks are where the jag head is, or behind it.  If behind the head, your rod may be dirty and transferring to the patch.  I drove myself crazy one day until I figured that out.  Cure?  Wipe the rod with a wet patch as you get close to clean. 

If the fouling is super bad, I'll use a nylon bore brush.  I do NOT use a brass one.  Brass ones can get stuck at the breech end.  I also don't want anything scratching my bore to make it harder to clean. 

After I am done, I dry the bore well and use my favorite bore protecting oil. 

If you have a patent breech or any chambered breech, store your rifle muzzle down.  The bore oil can flow into the breech and gum up.  Taylor and Daryl had to save me on one I bought.  Great advice guys, and thank you.

I agree 100% with Daryl on checking your gun a day or two after you clean it out.  Run a few more wet patches down.  You'll often see a little light film rust.  I have been told that you never get all of the moisture out the day of shooting, so let it evaporate and re-oil.  No problems after that ever.     

I ALWAYS clean my guns completely at the range.  No excuses. 

Last thought: some days the fouling will harden up on there like charcoal mixed with epoxy.  You'll spend a long time getting them clean on that day.  I had it happen last week on a really dry day.  Shoulder still sore from that cleanup. 

Best wishes and God Bless,  Marc 

Offline clevefails

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2017, 03:35:48 PM »
Problem solved,It was just a chemical reaction,I stopped using the copper brush and the solvent.And no more black.

Thanks for all the info,I am just cleaning with soap and water from now on.

Offline Daryl

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2017, 05:53:14 PM »
Many of us do not use any soaps as they are not necessary. Most soaps are mildly corrosive, that is, they contain salts or other chemicals to aid in cleaning.  I repeat, soaps are not necessary.  Been cleaning my muzzle loaders with only water, cold water, since 1976, about and have NEVER rusted one's bore.
Daryl

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Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2017, 07:26:12 PM »
I always use plain hot water and use a trick from Roberts book on Cap Lock Rifles. If you take a towel, and twist it you can wrap it around the stock tightly and use it as a handle so you can pour boiling hot water down the bore without pouring it on your hand. I never use any king of soap either, I once was told that the idea is the same as never using soap on iron cookware, Wipe it off or use plain water, use soap and it will lose all of it's seasoning and rust. Don't know how true that is but it has always worked for me. The hot water heats the barrel and when you wipe the barrel dry, it will evaporate any bit of moisture you missed. Then oil the bore.
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Offline hanshi

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2017, 11:40:09 PM »
A few thoughts.....

I always use a flat-face brass scraper on the end of my rod first before anything wet goes in the bore of a flat breech flintlock.  It scraps the hard gradeau loose from the breechface.  I turn the rifle muzzle down and tap lightly to get the crud to drop out.  Why get it out the hard way?   



Me too.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 11:41:00 PM by hanshi »
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2017, 11:57:13 PM »
The use of boiling water could cause flash rust. Use plain tap water. Dry after it's clean and use WD40 to get any trace amounts of moisture.

Offline Robby

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2017, 12:28:02 AM »
I polish the face of my breech plugs mirror bright. I never get any sludge in the flat scraper, but I always use it anyway.
Robin
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Offline EC121

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2017, 06:12:07 AM »
 I use a breech face brush with a little water.  It gets in the corners after it spreads out.  I can also put a patch on it for drying or wiping the breech.  I leave one on a wooden rod and use it for all calibers.
Brice Stultz

Offline Dave Marsh

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2017, 03:46:44 PM »
EC121, what exactly are you using as a breech face brush??  I can't find such a brush so was wondering what you used and where you got it.

Thanks.

Dave
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Offline EC121

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2017, 04:26:11 PM »
I get mine at www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com.  Look in the cleaning supplies.
Brice Stultz

Offline Dave Marsh

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2017, 04:58:35 PM »
EC121 Thanks. :)

Dave
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Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2017, 06:18:21 PM »
Quote:
The use of boiling water could cause flash rust. Use plain tap water. Dry after it's clean and use WD40 to get any trace amounts of moisture.

That is correct if left untreated except I always still wipe it dry, then wipe with WD-40 then oil. I find WD40 too thin to use as actual oil, but it is great for removing moisture. (Hence the name, Water Displacing ie WD).I have never had any flash rust. I do find that the hotter the water the faster it seems to clean. The only real advantage to using boiling water seems to be, it uses less patches before they come out perfectly clean. One other thing I do, if I do not plan on shooting that gun  again in the near future after a cleaning session, I run a few patches with RIG grease down the bore. I have some guns that have not been fired in years and the bores are still perfect if treated that way. A few patches run down the bore before the next shooting session will remove that. If left with just plain gun oil, they tend to pick up some light surface rust. I think everybody has their own technique and magic formula for cleaning, as long as it works and there is no rust, it is a good way.
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Offline clevefails

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2017, 06:48:29 PM »
Thanks for all the input,

this past weekend I fired 30 rounds at the range,I used the homemade moose milk recipe for patch lube with no need for patching between shots.When I returned home I scraped the breech with the scraper,removed barrel and vent liner and put breech end in gallon jug of warm water with a few drops of dawn liquid soap.Then patched,pump water thru until clean.Run a few patches of moose milk then hosed and patched with WD-40 and oiled with breakfree CLP. I will not use the copper brush again, don't see why I did to begin with.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: cleaning problem
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2017, 07:31:25 PM »
Quote:
The use of boiling water could cause flash rust. Use plain tap water. Dry after it's clean and use WD40 to get any trace amounts of moisture.

That is correct if left untreated except I always still wipe it dry, then wipe with WD-40 then oil. I find WD40 too thin to use as actual oil, but it is great for removing moisture. (Hence the name, Water Displacing ie WD).I have never had any flash rust. I do find that the hotter the water the faster it seems to clean. The only real advantage to using boiling water seems to be, it uses less patches before they come out perfectly clean. One other thing I do, if I do not plan on shooting that gun  again in the near future after a cleaning session, I run a few patches with RIG grease down the bore. I have some guns that have not been fired in years and the bores are still perfect if treated that way. A few patches run down the bore before the next shooting session will remove that. If left with just plain gun oil, they tend to pick up some light surface rust. I think everybody has their own technique and magic formula for cleaning, as long as it works and there is no rust, it is a good way.

I have never cleaned a long gun with really hot water and not had flash rusting. In my experience it will rust before a patch can be run down the bore. The idea of using hot water is to not have to drive off the water. It evaporates before it can be wiped out anyway, in my experience. I use tepid water or "warm" at the most.  Sometimes a little soap. But soap is at some level corrosive as well and needs to be well flushed.
Dan
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