Half Stock English Sporting rifle

[Justin Urbantas]

I am not finding a lot of literature around on half stock flintlock English Sporting rifles.
Can anyone give me an idea of how early one might be found with a flintlock and halfstock. Which lock would you recommend? Which book should I be looking for?
Thanks

[smylee grouch]

J.N. George's book "English Guns and Rifles" has a John Manton and H.W. Mortimer  rifles pictured with some specifications and history but small lock sided pictures. Still a good read. Both of these are date aprox. 1800.

[smart dog]

Hi,
It is hard to find much detailed information about English flintlock sporting rifles likely because they did not make many of them.  There was not nearly the demand for them as there was for fowling guns.  The earliest half stocked English rifle that I have seen was made in 1785 or later.  It was by John Manton and is pictured in Neal and Back's book on the Mantons.  It has a metal rib under the barrel and a scroll trigger guard a little like those found on some Hawken rifles.  Any flat-faced later English flintlock would be appropriate (Durs Egg, Manton, Late Ketland).  A round faced lock like the Chambers round-faced English lock would not be correct for a rifle from that period.  Barrel length would be less than 34", bore >50 cal, the hardware likely would be iron and a single set trigger would be appropriate. 

dave

[delivered]

Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790 is a great book if you can find one!

[Turtle]

 Pedrosoli makes s halfstock Mortimer rifle that looks good, but I can't say how correct. They clamed to have researched extensively before producing it. maybe they could help. A friend has one and it is without question the best performing  mass produced  flintlock rifle I have had experience with.
                                        Turtle

[Justin Urbantas]

Hi,
It is hard to find much detailed information about English flintlock sporting rifles likely because they did not make many of them.  There was not nearly the demand for them as there was for fowling guns.  The earliest half stocked English rifle that I have seen was made in 1785 or later.  It was by John Manton and is pictured in Neal and Back's book on the Mantons.  It has a metal rib under the barrel and a scroll trigger guard a little like those found on some Hawken rifles.  Any flat-faced later English flintlock would be appropriate (Durs Egg, Manton, Late Ketland).  A round faced lock like the Chambers round-faced English lock would not be correct for a rifle from that period.  Barrel length would be less than 34", bore >50 cal, the hardware likely would be iron and a single set trigger would be appropriate. 

dave

Thanks for the details Dave.  I thought the Ketland would be good. I was going to use the Chambers round face when I was going to do a fullstock, but not for the halfstock.  I like the idea of the hooked breech, so it takes down small for transport, and I would make 2 barrels for it. One .62 rifled, and a 20 or 12 gauge smoothbore.
Thanks for the book suggestions guys.

[Turtle]

  that Pedrosoli Mortimer also has an excellent lock that looks correct. A great sparker with long flint life. It even has a safety latch. Don't know if they sell the locks separate. Their rifle it .54 cal.
                                             Turtle

[Phip]

There's still time to sign up for Ron Scott's NMLRA class in Bowling Green this year.  They're doing an English sporting rifle based on an early 1800s Samuel Staudameyer, an apprentice (?) and contemporary of Manton.  Here's the link to Ron's class.  http://www.nmlragunsmithingseminar.org/2017-classes

[Justin Urbantas]

I would love to go to that class, but I have a cabin to put up this summer, and Kentucky is a long way from Montana.

[James Rogers]

Although half stocks were regularly used on English guns as early as 1720s, the only earlier half stock rifled pieces I have seen are breech loading. I think smart dog's 1780's time frame is about as early as I can think of ATM and I would suggest if you want it to be more common to go with a little later period.

[rhbrink]

Go to http://jwh-flintlocks.net click on the rifle picture and go down the down the pictures of the rifles the journey is worth it! Toward the last there is an English half stock rifle made in 1812 this is a copy but interesting and a neat story that go with it.

RB

[Brent English]

I used to collect only British stuff, Mantons, Purdeys, etc before I "saw the light" with American stuff.  English half stock flint rifles are out there, but they are rarer than shotguns.  Here are two exquisite English style flint double rifles, one English and one American.  Doesn't get much better than this (I have no association with the sellers):

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/antique-rifles-flintlock/b-j-cooper-new-york-extremely-rare-american-silver-mounted-23-bore-double-barreled-flintlock-sporting-gun-ca-1810.cfm?gun_id=100487702

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/antique-rifles-flintlock/durs-egg-london-exceptional-20-bore-double-flintlock-sporting-gun-cased-with-every-accessory-ca-1805.cfm?gun_id=100500723

[T*O*F]

It's been a while since I looked, but doesn't Clark in Canada sell the components for the Clark Factor's Rifle using his lock?

http://www.clarkindustries.on.ca.vsd16.korax.net/?page_id=682

Here's some pics of their Factors Rifle

http://www.clarkindustries.on.ca.vsd16.korax.net/?page_id=492

[Daryl]

Couple of these are 1/2 stocked single barrels English Sporting guns.
The top rifle is a 6 bore.
The middle one supposed to be a 28 bore.

[Joe S]

In what way does an English sporting rifle stock differ from an English half stock fowler?

[Mike Brooks]

In what way does an English sporting rifle stock differ from an English half stock fowler?

The rifle is rifled? Just a guess.

[Mike Brooks]

Here's one I used to own. Ca. 1680ish 12 bore breech loader. Nice balls for grasping eh?


Here's a bunch more pics, two pages worth.
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Gunmaker/library/english%20doglock%20breechloader?sort=3&page=1

[Joe S]

Having looked at a few pictures of half stock English sporting guns, and a few more of fowling pieces, I have now acquired enough expertise (by internet standards) to opine on the topic.

Opinion:  It looks like sporting rifles tend to have a top line approximately parallel to the bore, while half stock fowlers  tend to have a little drop in the heel.  Otherwise, they look the same to me.  What do you think Mike?  Would this observation hold up in the face of real facts?

Fat Joe

[smart dog]

Having looked at a few pictures of half stock English sporting guns, and a few more of fowling pieces, I have now acquired enough expertise (by internet standards) to opine on the topic.

Opinion:  It looks like sporting rifles tend to have a top line approximately parallel to the bore, while half stock fowlers  tend to have a little drop in the heel.  Otherwise, they look the same to me.  What do you think Mike?  Would this observation hold up in the face of real facts?

Fat Joe

In a word, no.

dave

[Daryl]

Here's one for sale on a different site- Boulder Col..

Great bore and very good metal overall, the only pitting is on the trigger guard and trigger plate. Lock functions correctly. Un-signed action, round ball gun at about 8 lbs. Looks to have had an older re-finish but nicely done throughout 2500$ Ramrod needs to be replaced. 1:64 rate of twist.

[Joe S]

In a word, no.

OK Dave.  I'll bite.  What would you describe as the main differences in architecture?

I'm very curious about this now that the topic has come up.  Half stock fowlers and half stock rifles really do seem to me to have the same architecture.  I appreciate that the gun that Daryl posted has a cheek piece that I would not expect to see on a fowler.  While a cheek piece may show up on half stock rifles, they are not ubiquitous at least to my small knowledge.

[T*O*F]

A rifle is aimed so your eye must look down the sights when shouldered.

A fowler is pointed for shooting at flying objects.  Your eye must look down the barrel when shouldered.  It's a subtle difference.
If you aim a fowler, then it's not a fowler, it's a buck and ball gun or a smooth rifle.

[smart dog]

Hi Jose,
Your impression that rifles and fowlers are similar is correct but the differences is drop and comb you suggest are not reliable rules of thumb to differentiate between them.  Rifle stocks were generally more robust than fowlers (except for small bored rifles, perhaps) but some have more drop at the heel than others depending I assume on the build of the owner for whom the gun was made.  Some half stocked fowlers from the period have butt stocks that look similar to Brown Bess muskets with a comb almost parallel with the bore.  Some English rifles and fowlers that I've seen from that time have combs with noses that almost disappear into the wrist with very small steps. 

dave   

[Mike Brooks]

In a word, no.

OK Dave.  I'll bite.  What would you describe as the main differences in architecture?

I'm very curious about this now that the topic has come up.  Half stock fowlers and half stock rifles really do seem to me to have the same architecture.  I appreciate that the gun that Daryl posted has a cheek piece that I would not expect to see on a fowler.  While a cheek piece may show up on half stock rifles, they are not ubiquitous at least to my small knowledge.

I have owned SXS flint double shot guns with cheek pieces.

[Daryl]

Following patterns - here's a 1/2 stock .54 of English design Taylor once built.


original



One 16 bore rifle Dphar  built




Manton SXS



11 bore HWhall




My little 14 bore, held by my late buddy Brad.