Author Topic: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.  (Read 9915 times)

Offline 3 swans

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Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« on: February 13, 2017, 05:33:04 AM »
Anybody ever use a straight rifled barrel in a new build, If so, any details on how they do. Is there any gains over a smooth bore gun. I have someone looking to be able to use shot and ball in same gun. I had thoughts on smooth rifle with small amount of choke.

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2017, 05:47:39 AM »
A smoothbore with a jug choked barrel may be what your friend is looking for.  It should shoot both ball and shot well.

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Offline P.Bigham

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2017, 05:58:39 AM »
 I owned a straight rifled Flintlock a few years ago. I seen no great advantage over a smoothbore.
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2017, 07:06:54 PM »
I'm not sure straight rifleing was ever designed to shoot shot through. I believe it was designed to collect fouling and allow smoothbore shooters shooting a patched round ball,  to get more shots without swabbing the bore. Leading would be a problem with any kind of rifleing in a shotgun.
 Chokes on the other hand are a very late 19th century invention, and in my opinion have no business at any primitive event.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Brent English

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2017, 08:12:48 PM »
Just FYI, I had a beat up double rifle of continental origin that had one barrel with twist rifling and the other with straight rifling.  Both were the same caliber, number of grooves and depth of grooves.  It was a basket case when I bought it.  Had to resolder the barrels, etc.  Sold it to a friend who proceeded to slay numerous deer with it over the years.  I regulated the barrels so they shot to the same point of impact at 50 yards.  At modest distances encountered in Southern Wisconsin where we hunt, he couldn't tell the difference between the two barrels as far as accuracy.  About two inch groups from either barrel at that range.  It was around 50-54 caliber as I recall.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2017, 09:45:45 PM »
The straight rifled Husky I had, one smooth, the other straight rifled with .015" rifling depth per side, shot patched round balls into 2" at 30 yards, rest.
 This particular gun was in answer to a game branch order by the Swedish Government that only rifles could be used for moose. Husqvarna then left one barrel smooth and put straight (or twisted) rifling in the other.  Many Swedes who shot their moose every year with their 12's or 16's and BP round ball loads before the law change, were the quick to pick up a SXS with one straight rifled barrel, as it simply changed into an open choked barrel for shot. Some went for the twisted rifling.  Shot loads from Husqvarna were loaded in paper, while round balls in 20 to 16  bore, were loaded in brass.

The one I had, shot beautiful even patterns, while the choked barrel produced really modified patterns.

A good smoothbore will do as well with patched round balls as a straight rifled barrel from what I've seen, but without some form of choke, will likely not shoot shot as well as the straight rifled tube.  I think the increased friction nature of the deep grooves likely prevents the wads from blowing the pattern at the muzzle.  As the pressure is reduced at that location, it is possible the rifling does have a beneficial effect on the patterns from this or some other reason.  I tested with modern ammo and BP loads, both paper, plastic and brass cases. On the other side of the coin, is leading in the grooves from the shot scrubbing - much more bore surface area than in a smooth bore.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 09:41:28 PM by Daryl »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2017, 03:22:42 PM »
I'm not sure straight rifleing was ever designed to shoot shot through. I believe it was designed to collect fouling and allow smoothbore shooters shooting a patched round ball,  to get more shots without swabbing the bore. Leading would be a problem with any kind of rifleing in a shotgun.
 Chokes on the other hand are a very late 19th century invention, and in my opinion have no business at any primitive event.

  Hungry Horse
I completely disagree about your straight rifling statement. I have period documentation to back up they were using it to tighten shot patterns. I have no time to go digging for the documentation so you can disregard if you want. I owned a 1780's Durrs Egg fowling gun that had a Spanish barrel that was 14 bore and straight rifled with 17 grooves.
According to James Rodgers research, patched RB's were not used in fowling guns, maybe he'll jump in here....or not.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 03:27:12 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2017, 04:28:08 PM »
Straight rifled barrels are often quite light, looking more like fowling gun barrels than buck and ball gun barrels.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2017, 04:33:57 PM »
Straight rifled barrels are often quite light, looking more like fowling gun barrels than buck and ball gun barrels.
All the straight rifled barrels on English guns that I have seen were fowling gun barrels. The rifling required a certain size of shot for the size/depth of rifling that was used.
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Offline Joe Stein

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2017, 04:08:53 AM »
I have a rifle that is attributed to James Marker of Maryland that has straight rifling.  It is a fairly plain gun, with a nicely engraved patchbox, and a full octagonal barrel.  The barrel is just under one inch (by a few thousandths) with a barely noticeable swamp.  The patchbox is very similar to a Paul Marker patchbox in one of Dan Hartzler's books.

Offline Longknife

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2017, 04:44:10 PM »
It was common in Europe to make SXS rifles with one barrel straight rifled and one with a twist. I have one signed "J Springer vorm. Nowotny in Wein" The left 26 inch barrel is straight rifled and the right one is 1/26. It is .63 caliber with 12 groove rifling.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 04:45:09 PM by Longknife »
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Offline Brent English

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2017, 07:11:35 PM »
It was common in Europe to make SXS rifles with one barrel straight rifled and one with a twist. I have one signed "J Springer vorm. Nowotny in Wein" The left 26 inch barrel is straight rifled and the right one is 1/26. It is .63 caliber with 12 groove rifling.

Does anyone happen to know the purpose of making one straight and one twist when both were the same caliber and groove configuration?  This seems different than the barrels made for fowlers and shooting shot that Mr. Brooks mentioned. 
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Offline Bill Paton

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2017, 11:18:53 PM »
My opinion is that there may be various correct answers as to why straight rifling was used.

1) As Mike discussed, a gun with thin barrel(s) and a fowler front site with no rear sight but having straight rifling was probably for shooting shot with a better pattern. A contemporary maker of swivel breeches told me about 20 years ago that he experimented with straight rifling for shot barrels, and with the right load worked up, he got very good patterns. I have a nice little original French percussion double fowler that fits this bill (both barrels straight micro-grooved rifled). I would not want to shoot round balls from its thin Damascus barrels.

A jaeger wender (swivel breech) in my double rifle study has light barrels, blade front sights, no rear sights, one straight rifled barrel, and one smooth barrel, both 59 cal. I think it was built as a fowler. If straight rifling tightened up the shot pattern, this flintlock would have the equivalent of a cylinder bore and a choked barrel. However, to complicate the issue, the straight rifled barrel should be shot second, is numbered “1”, and is slightly heavier than smooth barrel #”2". Maybe somebody was expecting to fire balls out of it even without sights. After all, some hunters still shoot slugs from shotguns without rifle sights.

2) Dillin reported studies showing that straight rifling grouped better with round balls than smooth bores, but not as well as twist rifling. Those tests should be done well beyond 50 yards in my opinion, since smooth rifles can shoot very well to 50 yards or more, and the advantage of any rifling should be looked for at the greater ranges. (The double rifle that Brent English mentioned in this thread would be a good one for a serious experiment comparing straight and twist rifling, using the most accurate loads that could be worked up. Then add a good smooth rifle to the test as well.)

Straight rifled guns with barrels heavier than thin fowlers, and with rifle sights, may well have been for shooting shot, and also balls with better accuracy than smooth bores.

Many Kentucky double rifles were made with two twist rifled barrels, one twist and the other smooth, and also with one twist and the other straight rifled. They nearly always have rifle sights and barrels big enough to fire balls.

3) The easy loading theory may have merit, but does not explain the many European black powder BREECH loaders with one twist and one straight rifled barrel.

4) Mike Brooks, if you ever find that period documentation on straight rifling tightening shot patterns, I would love to use it in my Kentucky Double Rifle book!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 06:19:37 AM by Bill Paton »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2017, 12:39:44 AM »
It seems my reference is in one of the "Great British Gunmakers" books by Neal & Back. It would probably take days of full time study to find as those books are rather distracting for me to thumb through........cain't keep on task. ;)
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2017, 12:44:27 AM »
Oh, one more throw into the mix....Seems while spending some time at Shumway's booth at Friendship for all those years he stated that there were special purpose "Bore Rifles" made in europe. They were typically 1/2 stock and had straight rifled barrels. He showed me several and led me to believe they were/are quite common. E. Kettenburg would probably know something of this..... Or for sure Chris Immel who seems to have vanished from the face of the earth....probably looking for answers..... ???
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2017, 12:56:24 AM »
Anybody ever use a straight rifled barrel in a new build, If so, any details on how they do. Is there any gains over a smooth bore gun. I have someone looking to be able to use shot and ball in same gun. I had thoughts on smooth rifle with small amount of choke.

Straight "rifling" is called SPLINES as found in car parts,telescoping U joints etc.
The late Don Brown told me he had a barrel made in 58 caliber with straight
rifling and got some velocities of over 200p FPS but hat can be done with a
smooth bore.

Bob Roller

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2017, 01:52:01 AM »
Eric Kettenberg used to have a very long article up on his site going into the construction details of a short-barreled German Jaeger rifle with straight rifling. Nothing about that gun, as far as I recall, gave any indication that it was intended to shoot shot.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2017, 02:17:35 AM »
Eric Kettenberg used to have a very long article up on his site going into the construction details of a short-barreled German Jaeger rifle with straight rifling. Nothing about that gun, as far as I recall, gave any indication that it was intended to shoot shot.
The guns I was referring to were long barreled, around 42" or so. and looked much more like a fowling gun than a rifle.
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Offline Elnathan

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2017, 03:57:45 AM »
Eric Kettenberg used to have a very long article up on his site going into the construction details of a short-barreled German Jaeger rifle with straight rifling. Nothing about that gun, as far as I recall, gave any indication that it was intended to shoot shot.
The guns I was referring to were long barreled, around 42" or so. and looked much more like a fowling gun than a rifle.

I figured that you were referring to something different than Eric's rifle, and mentioned it as an additional data point. He thought it was one of a set of rifles intended for handing out to guests on boar hunts, IIRC.

It is possible that straight rifling was used for different reasons on guns intended for different purposes.
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Offline Joe Stein

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2017, 05:09:55 AM »
While reading the answers to this topic, I remembered that some years ago, maybe on the "Old Board" there was a similar discussion. Don Getz wrote that he had spent a lot of time shooting clay birds with modern guns, and that many of the purpose-built clay pigeon guns had straight rifling, because there was some good evidence that they shot tighter groups. I think Chris Immel was involved in that discussion, too.
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Offline Elnathan

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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2017, 06:10:27 AM »
Chris Immel, aka "Stophel," was posting over at another board as a couple weeks ago. I think that is him....
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Re: Straight Rifling -- Need some info.
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2017, 04:31:58 AM »
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