So... barrel steel discussion here?

[Eric Kettenburg]

Could we have an intelligent discussion ---> here? <---  Would seem to be the proper section.  "Gun Building."  I would seriously value input from metallurgists who know that of which they speak.

BTW, while perhaps some may consider this topic 'beating a dead horse' etc., I could say the same about the ba-zillion threads dealing with aqua fortis, or finishes, or inletting methods etc.

I don't recall any of those repetitive threads getting locked out.

It's a legitimate topic that SHOULD be of interest to everyone here, given that we really can't make an appropriate firelock with a piece of copper tubing...

Can't see a discussion of "Gun Building" not involving the barrel material itself.  And I would like to learn more, as long as it is verifiable information.

To begin:  I am aware that the use of 12L14 for a gun barrel, even a blackpowder barrel, is apparently a highly controversial topic.  So let's set that aside for a moment, as it's certainly being used and is probably the most commonly used material for black powder barrels.

Has anyone with a metallurgical background conducted a study, or is aware of a study, which examines what may be happening with a barrel of such material over time and use?  Not speculation; any kind of study which has really scientifically looked at the effect of repetitive pressure and 'typical' shooting use upon the structure of the steel?  I would be interested to know this.

[Walks with Fire]

I always wondered why modern barrels were not made with chrome moly and just be done with the pressure problems to begin with. Some of it doesn't make sense to me.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'm going to assume that first and foremost, perhaps there's a cost difference.  Second, I know pretty much any steel is probably going to be harder on tooling than 12L14.  Rayl barrels are wonderful shooters but an absolute bear to file; furthermore, if you like to cold form dovetails (lift the ends w/ small chisels in other words) it's a cakewalk with 12L whereas with whatever Ed is/was using, it is a whole different story.  It's certainly not nearly as cost effective to machine barrels when the cutters are wearing at a much faster rate? 

[WadePatton]

I always wondered why modern barrels were not made with chrome moly and just be done with the pressure problems to begin with. Some of it doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not in the biz, but have messed with some metal.  Raw material costs and time/tooling costs might push the barrel prices beyond what the "great hordes" will pay for a bbl?

As Mr. Roller and anyone else who has sold a LOT of good parts probably knows, they are a CHEAP bunch-us Americans.  We're about the 8th generation brought up on "cheaper is better".  This may explain why we eat such horrible $#@* too.

It's only old goats and wise folks who avoid the 'bargain basement' mentality on a daily basis to get the best satisfaction from the money they spend.

Also, there are the hordes that want it "now".  The micro-wave/instant potatoes bunch.  They think they cannot wait for a few months.  They don't plan for the future much, they just expect everything to be ready when they want it. 

I felt better about 12L14 until I saw a piece rip fracture in the machine shop.  I have 4 more bbls of it and then I can make the decision to buy more of the same or to explore the other options.  Maybe naval brass is next.   Sorry no help to your actual topic Eric.

[Goo]

  My two cents would start by saying this is a science question and science needs data.   Taking a handheld laser  analyser/ spectrometer (scrap metal dealers have these) to the next show could help determine the composition of a number of original barrels.   You would then posess information which would be quite valuable to the entire ML industry.     In my opinion it is a compromise between material strength, workability by the small shop crafts person, and performance safety according to not over loading the product.

[Elnathan]

I'm going to assume that first and foremost, perhaps there's a cost difference.  Second, I know pretty much any steel is probably going to be harder on tooling than 12L14.  Rayl barrels are wonderful shooters but an absolute bear to file; furthermore, if you like to cold form dovetails (lift the ends w/ small chisels in other words) it's a cakewalk with 12L whereas with whatever Ed is/was using, it is a whole different story.  It's certainly not nearly as cost effective to machine barrels when the cutters are wearing at a much faster rate?

Rayl uses 8620

Cost difference is about $30 bucks more for material costs, at least for 86L20, per a barrel maker I spoke with recently.

Another maker I corresponded with said that he could make smooth bore round barrels out of 8620, but his rifling machine and planer were only set up for 12L14, so I think it isn't just a matter of wear but also how the blades are sharpened (I imagine that it is like the difference between a tool set up for softwood and one set up for hardwood).

[Longknife]

There was a booklet made a few years back, "THE DESTRUCTIVE TESTING OF MUZZLE-LOADING RIFLE BARRELS"  by Jerry Cunningham. Jerry worked for Montana Rifle Barrel Co. at the at time and they supplied all the barrels which were machined from  12L14 or 1214 Bismuth solid round bar stock. Jerry had to SEVERLY overload the barrels to get them to fail.

Example:
 .32 X 13/16-12L14 octagon, wall thickness .237
  200 grains powder 2 patched balls on powder.... NO DAMAGE
 400 grains powder  4 patched balls on powder..... BURST IN TWO PIECES

Example:
 .54 X .730 round 12L14, wall thickness .080
 600 grains powder, 1 patched ball on powder.....BULGE .010
 600 grains powder, 3 patched balls on powder....BURST IN TWO PIECES

These are just a few examples of the two dozen or so barrels that were tested.
 

[bob in the woods]

Cabin Creek is now offering wrought iron barrels on a custom basis, so I suppose we should include w.i. in this discussion ??
I have a couple of Ed Rayl's barrels [steel] and yes..they do shoot well, however they are not my favourites as far as working / engraving etc. I find it strange that he chooses this material for reasons of strength , and yet is one of the few makers who offers bronze/brass barrels .  I have no scientific back ground, so can only offer my opinion based on 30 + years of usage. My preference is for Getz, Rice, and then Colerain in that order. I know that many will argue that materials aren't suitable, however I've never seen evidence that any mishap [ few that there are] was within the realm of normal loading procedures.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Eric's original question was about any research or data showing effects of long-term use on modern muzzleloading barrels made from 12L14 steel.  He is not asking about proofing.  Perhaps there are some metalurgical studies about the alloy but I doubt any about long-term use as muzzleloading barrels.  As in some kinds of medical research, you could look at retrospective data.  For example, you could sample survey shooters using guns with 12L14 barrels and another group using Green Mountain barrels (1137) and control for caliber, load size, number of rounds shot, barrel dimensions, etc using statistical methods such as proportional hazards modeling.  The outcome would be the relative risk of failure between the 2 kinds of barrels.  However, you must have some failures in your data, and I don't believe that many 12L14 or 1137 barrels have failed over the years, which may tell you something by itself.  That kind of study might actually be more useful because it uses data from normal use. 

dave 

[Stan]

Remembering Bob Chadwick, He met with a metallurgist from a foundry in the Philadelphia area , must have been in the 1950s, and a formula for barrel steel/iron was devised that was the closest thing to wrought iron that could be made. If I remember correctly Bob was a 4th generation gunsmith. The barrels he made were outstanding shooters.
I know that Bob Hoyt ended  up with some of his blanks and thought very highly of then. By the way Mr Chadwick
used a old style square reamer which produced a tapered bore. I don't know if Mr Chadwicks 'son would know anything about the formula.

[Gaeckle]

  However, you must have some failures in your data, and I don't believe that many 12L14 or 1137 barrels have failed over the years, which may tell you something by itself.  That kind of study might actually be more useful because it uses data from normal use. 

dave

As far as failures are concerned, I think that there are a wide variety of variables that need to be considered. Aside from age, use and abuse some of these variables could be powder type (2f, 3f, 4f), obstructions, weak breach, too deep a dovetail slot cut, the use of smokeless powder (it happens), theres probably more than the ones I've mentioned.

Modern cartridge barrels have failures as well.....sorry, I may be treading into an area where we aren't allowed to discuss, but lets face it: we dabble in a hobby that if you don't pay attention to what you are doing there could be dire concequences.

[Eric Kettenburg]

My interest is really within the perspective of modern - 21st century - liability issues, which I think should be a concern of anyone building a firearm (ok I know these are not technically considered firearms by ATF or most sane states) today.  We know the material used for the old 18th and early 19th century barrels; it was iron of varying grades with a welded seam.  OK.  I want to set that aside because first of all, save for a 10K to 20K+ piece nowadays, it's so rare as to be pointless to discuss it. Of course one can obtain barrels drilled from true iron round stock, I've got plenty of it but I doubt I'll ever use it.  Again, liability issues.  Barrel makers in 1780 could probably use anything they wanted as there was no need to worry about Cefalo and Associates or any of the other liability greaseballs who advertise round the clock trying to rile up anyone who's ever gotten a splinter into a class action.  So 12L14 seems to have become the de   rigueur material for long blackpowder barrels at least since the 1970s if not earlier.  I am interested in the 'why' of this, and interested in other materials which may be more suitable, and I'm interested as I originally posted in the existence of some type of scientific study as to the long term effects of pressure and stress, in various temperatures, on a barrel made of this material.  The proof to destruction testing is interesting, but it really does not (to my mind) present an accurate picture because it's a one-time severe stress, and there is no follow up as far as I'm aware as to (1) how that stress affects subsequent use of the material and (2) the ability of the material to withstand such stress across all platforms and all environmental possibilities.  Also, the test-to-destruction approach is only valid within the narrow parameters of a particular bore or cross-sectional diameter.  What about others?  There are certainly a graduated pressure as the projectile moves from the beech to the muzzle, much as there is a graduated taper in most modern barrels ("swamped") that we use.

Just thinking out loud; the other threads on the contemporary board that were locked out have really piqued my curiosity.

[Scota4570]

Muzzle Blasts 1985, James Kelly Michigan, "The Strength of a gun barrel"  It was a three part series.  It is worth the time to read if this subject interests you.

In short the biggest issue with barrels seemed to be flaws in the steel, seems, long lead inclusions, too much sulfur.  The 12L14 is extremely common in ML barrels.  It appears to get brittle if over worked to cold draw the octagon shape.  Other steels appear to be more flexible and less prone to fatigue.  He also looked at actual pressure testing.  ML pressure are much higher than many folks realize. 

It is my thought that 12L14 cold drawn barrels were extremely commonly used a the time.  That creates a "conformational bias" regarding failures of such barrels.  Back then lots of people thought you could not load BP to dangerous pressures. Back then some mass produced rifles were not breached properly causing a very thin barrel wall ahead of the plug.  All that indicates to me that at the time the arguments may have had some merit.  Today I don't think that is so. We know more now and  I suspect some the manufacturing practices have gotten better.

We'll never come to any generally accepted conclusion here.  Some makers use leaded steel some don't choose you barrels according if you worry about this. 

A search shows this subject has some up before.  Maybe that 1985 article could be made a sticky?

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yes, that would be a good sticky.  How about it Mr. Kelly?  Have a copy?  You are the copyright holder at this point and one of the few people who actually, truly knows about that of which we speak!

[jerrywh]

 The reason most muzzle loading barrel makers do not use chrome moly is not just because it is harder to machine or because 12L14 is cheaper for them. at least 80% of the makers now cringe at the price of barrels and parts already.  how would you  feel if the cost of a Hawken barrel was say $800.00  or a 42" long swamped barrel was $1000.00. There are other factors than tool wear.  The whole process is different for machining modern gun barrel steel. It flexes differently and has different reaction to stress  etc etc.  Any time you think something is simple you just don't know much about it.
  https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Gun+barrels+for+sale  Think about it.  If there were a fair demand for them somebody would be making them. People won't pay for them. That's reality.

[Gaeckle]

 
I think, Eric, that your question with regards to 12L14 was answered by yourself when you described other barrels as being tough on files and cutting dovetails and what not.

I've hand rifled quite a few barrels and the best that cut is 12L14. The worse is 4150, followed by 4140. The 1137 used by Green Mountain cut rifles very smooth. There was a time when I demonstrated rifling at some shows, one of them being the Ohio Deer & Turkey Expo. Oddly enough, at one show, not far from our booth was Tompson Center. Those guys spent more time at our booth watching and partaking in what we were doing than their own booth.

The TC guys told us how TC made barrels: button rifled as opposed to cut rifling. In pushing the button the barrel becomes so hard due to stress that it can shatter if dropped. The steel they used was 4150. To allieviate this brittle condition, the barrels were stacked in a very specific way and then cooked in an oven for a couple of days to reduce the stress and brittleness yet allow for a tough barrel.

I think, but I'm not sure, that the majority of modern blackpowder barrels are cut rifled. I think that by cut rifling (by hand) being a slower, steady process the internal stresses on a barrel don't show themselves (this is just a guess). I have seen a barrel made by a not-to-be mentioned well none maker warp severly when it was reemed by John Kleggy at Freindship (the barrel was straightened and re-rifled the following year). Seeing that, I have to believe that the warped barrel (after reeming) could have been cut rifled by force of hydraulics, that force being transformed to the barrel that though was straight (before being reemed out) was now bent and warped.

It could be said, regardless of how the barrel is made and rifled, there will always be a few that have some sort of imperfection unseen by the naked eye. We as people can't control everything.

But as far as finish work on a barrel is concerned, yes 12L14 is great to wrok with, engraves nice, files nice, takes to browning well. If the end user isn't paying attention to what he or she is doing in the loading and firing process and blows their hand off or kills themselves, then Darwin was correct. Makes you wonder how much is user error as opposed to equipment failure.

[sqrldog]

Not much of an authority on different types of steels but recently had a conversation about 12l14 with a friend that knows much more about steel than I do. 12l14 comes cold rolledand hot rolled not sure which most barrel makers use but it makes sense that hot rolled would be less likely to stress crack than cold rolled or drawn steel. He knew Les Bauska well and Les only used hot drawn steel. In fact Les  according to my friend made modern barrels of 12l14. I wonder if  all the muzzleloading barrels made from 12l14 were totaled up what the number would be. Of this number excluding Douglas how many have failed keeping in mind that some of these barrels have been in use for forty or more years. From the criticism of 12l14 on this forum you would think these barrels were failing in staggering numbers. I don't own  a rifle with a Douglas barrel but I feel relatively sure all the rest have barrels of 12l14. I agree one failure or one injury is too many. But increasing the price of a barrel two or three fold will only hasten the demise of Contemporary Muzxleloaders.

[smart dog]

  However, you must have some failures in your data, and I don't believe that many 12L14 or 1137 barrels have failed over the years, which may tell you something by itself.  That kind of study might actually be more useful because it uses data from normal use. 

dave

As far as failures are concerned, I think that there are a wide variety of variables that need to be considered. Aside from age, use and abuse some of these variables could be powder type (2f, 3f, 4f), obstructions, weak breach, too deep a dovetail slot cut, the use of smokeless powder (it happens), theres probably more than the ones I've mentioned.

Modern cartridge barrels have failures as well.....sorry, I may be treading into an area where we aren't allowed to discuss, but lets face it: we dabble in a hobby that if you don't pay attention to what you are doing there could be dire concequences.

Hi Gaeckle,
That is why you match the 1137 barrels with the 12L14s because it is plausible to assume that the variables you describe will occur about the same frequency within random samples of barrels made of both metals and any differences in failure rate are owing to the barrel metal.  In study design parlance, this is called "case control".

[rich pierce]

Not a metallurgist, but I am not sure that fatigue is a problem in iron or steel barrels that are stress relieved. There is little bending or deformation of rifle barrels. In most material fatigue studies such as on bicycle frames, the steel or other fabricated object is subjected to cyclic stress to simulate use, which typically involves "springing" the object in the same directions and with forces generated during actual use. Bicycle frames may be subjected to simulation of use of 20 years, for example.  Then typically the fabricated object undergoes destructive testing to see how much of the original capacity to resist failure was lost in use.

I do not know how you simulate 100,000 rounds fired in a muzzleloading rifle barrel without actually firing it 100,000 times.

Many serious target shooters report having shot their barrels 20,000 times and some report 50,000 times.

[Paddlefoot]

I believe that Douglas barrels were button rifled so maybe that is the source of the difficulties with them if was work hardening them. Still I have several from back in the 70s and still no problems.

[Dennis Glazener]

The reason most muzzle loading barrel makers do not use chrome moly is not just because it is harder to machine or because 12L14 is cheaper for them. at least 80% of the makers now cringe at the price of barrels and parts already.  how would you  feel if the cost of a Hawken barrel was say $800.00  or a 42" long swamped barrel was $1000.00. There are other factors than tool wear.  The whole process is different for machining modern gun barrel steel. It flexes differently and has different reaction to stress  etc etc.  Any time you think something is simple you just don't know much about it.
  https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Gun+barrels+for+sale  Think about it.  If there were a fair demand for them somebody would be making them. People won't pay for them. That's reality.

I understand and agree with Jerry regarding increased cost of rifle barrels but I am not sure that would happen. Ed Rayl's barrels are made from modern gun steel and his prices seem to be competitive with those that use 12L14.
Dennis

[Mike Brooks]

I blew a Douglas barrel years ago.  Flint 1" X .50. Loaded it with 80gr 2ff then rammed the ball home then must have dumped 80grg 2ff again then short started the ball only. Blew her all to $#*!. The short started ball was still in the barrel, blew at the breech, never found the top flat, the stock was completely shattered.I got a singed eye brow and a new respect for paying attention to what you're doing when you're loading. I don't think it probably mattered much what the barrel was made of. Stupid is what stupid does.

[Bob Roller]

I always wondered why modern barrels were not made with chrome moly and just be done with the pressure problems to begin with. Some of it doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not in the biz, but have messed with some metal.  Raw material costs and time/tooling costs might push the barrel prices beyond what the "great hordes" will pay for a bbl?

As Mr. Roller and anyone else who has sold a LOT of good parts probably knows, they are a CHEAP bunch-us Americans.  We're about the 8th generation brought up on "cheaper is better".  This may explain why we eat such horrible $#@* too.

It's only old goats and wise folks who avoid the 'bargain basement' mentality on a daily basis to get the best satisfaction from the money they spend.

Also, there are the hordes that want it "now".  The micro-wave/instant potatoes bunch.  They think they cannot wait for a few months.  They don't plan for the future much, they just expect everything to be ready when they want it. 

I felt better about 12L14 until I saw a piece rip fracture in the machine shop.  I have 4 more bbls of it and then I can make the decision to buy more of the same or to explore the other options.  Maybe naval brass is next.   Sorry no help to your actual topic Eric.

Muzzle loading activities revived in the 1930's by Bill Large,E.M.Farris,C.R.Ramsey has grown into a world wide sport/hobby.
Here in America in the 1930's it was in a deeply distressed market and has been that way for many ever since.
Today there are a good number of highly skilled individuals making new rifles and another group supplying parts like
locks,barrels and other needed hardware as a cottage industry.None of us will get rich but some have made a decent living
from these activities.Prices today seem to be out of the really distressed market and the appeal is to those who now have
the means to indulge themselves from time to time. In other words,discretionary income to play with.
As to barrel steels,I much prefer the ones made from tougher,less questionable materials than the ones geared only to price.

Bob Roller

[flehto]

In general we're guessing as to what's the most suitable MLing bbl steel......the bbl makers are usually  small, private  enterprises  mainly owned by one individual and can hardly afford lawsuits and seeing some have been in business for a number of years,  the lawsuits must be minimal These small bbl making companies can't afford a bevy of lawyers or even one lawyer on standby in case a lawsuit is filed. Or the builders and shooters of MLers don't sue....which I doubt.

This discussion is bereft of test data of the various steels used for making MLing bbls ...so  why the discussion?......Fred   

[jerrywh]

It is reported that Ed Rayl uses 8620 steel for barrels. I would never call 8620 a modern rifle barrel steel. 8620 annealed has a tensile strength of 76900psi and a yield strength of 55800psi. These specs are both lower than the specs of 12L14.  12L14 has a tensile strength of 78300 psi and a yield strength of 60200psi
  These are not the only things to be considered but they are the main ones. Although 8620  will harden it will not very much because the carbon content is only .2 om average. That is a very mild steel.
  It is used by some gun makers for barrels of sharps and other single shot rifles. these rifles are intended for use with black powder or very mild forms of modern powder such as 5744.  A low pressure smokeless powder. 8620 is primarily used for parts that will be case hardened.
   A real modern rifle barrel steel would be 4140 or 4150 heat treated. Try buying a 42" swamped barrel made of 4140 or 4150.