So... barrel steel discussion here?

[rich pierce]

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=43044.0

Thread in shooting forum where shooters recount barrel life. So far our friend Roger Fisher is holding the record at 45,000 rounds in one barrel.

[Dphariss]

Could we have an intelligent discussion ---> here? <---  Would seem to be the proper section.  "Gun Building."  I would seriously value input from metallurgists who know that of which they speak.

Snip

We HAVE one here, very experienced, been looking at the ML barrel steel thing for DECADES, but  MLs have a "kill the messenger" attitude when the subject comes up.  The ONLY ONLY ONLY people in the world of gun barrels that defend cheap steels are the people that make barrels from the stuff. A friend of mine (in the gun industry at some level for decades) was having a conversation with a big name in barrels in the real world. When the 12L14 barrel steel question came up he stated that anyone who watched how cheap mill run steel was made would never use it for a gun barrel. But what would he know.
Its EXTREMELY difficult (as I found out when I was working for Shiloh) to get metallurgists to talk about gun barrels. They don't want to end up testifying in some court case. I FINALLY got an answer from a professor of metallurgy at a major university who a friend have gotten to answer the question. All he would say, and I never got his name or school, was "why would anyone use anything but chrom-moly for gun barrels?".

Then we have the price thing. How many here would pay $400+ for a barrel?  Far easier to make than a cut rifled 44" swamped octagonal barrel.

Dan

[Eric Kettenburg]

Fred - the reason for the discussion is because I sincerely would like to see some test data of differing metals and I'm hoping some metallurgists or others with actual, documentable data maybe venture out of the weeds.  Perhaps the data does not exist - I have no idea.

Jerry - I agree that using something like 4140 or 4150 would most likely increase the price but honestly I do not see how it would increase it to the degree that you've speculated.  It's not as though those materials are rare, or inordinately expensive.  I anticipate pushing the length out to the 40" range or so would of course increase pricing but frankly I don't see why it would initiate a huge pricing increase if a barrel maker already set up to make long muzzleloading barrels simply changed material and was using it 'white' i.e. not blued or parkerized or QPQ etc.

I also do not think that a barrel being double the price over typical - $200 to $300 range being typical - would be something that would be a big deal to a professional gun builder.  A hobbyist, perhaps, but I would think anyone making a bunch of these on a yearly basis, or making them for a high $$$ audience, would find the price difference to be anything other than a blip on the radar.  What is a $2-300 difference in the price of a $5K+ (in some cases +++) gun?

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'm not trying to be excessively argumentative nor am I trying to instigate WWIII.  I'm simply curious and looking for genuine, scientific information.  Arbitrary or anecdotal evidence obviously supports the use of 12L14 for barrels - heck, there are enough of them out there and we've all been using them for decades.  But it only takes ONE liability situation to wipe out everything any of us has built and I don't see how the use of a barrel not certified as gun barrel steel could ever be defended, especially given the fact that we all know it's not certified for gun usage, blackpowder or not.

[snapper]

I put together and posted the below several years ago, and I am simply re-posting it here today.    I still believe what I wrote several years ago.  I have Mitch Yates building me a rifle right now and I have him using a GM barrel manly because of the type of steel the barrel is made from.


Some folks are simply not open to any information on this topic that is not the same as their opinion, and if you are one of those, please don’t read any farther, it is not my intent to get you all worked up.   If you have an open mind and are willing to looking at some information I offer the following.

Let me first state that I am not a metallurgist nor am I an engineer.  I do however have 30 years of professional experience in reviewing and evaluation of manufacturer’s of cargo tanks and other metal containers constructed of various metals for use in hazardous materials service.  I am also trained in ASME boiler and pressure vessel code section VIII for construction of these vessels.

I also do not consider myself as an expert in this area.  I have a working knowledge of metals and steel, but nothing close to being an expert.  I do work with metallurgist on occasion and over the years have posed this question to them and also to a metallurgist that worked for a major steel mill.  Each of them, without hesitation in short said no way would they ever use 12L14 for a ML barrel.

Some of the information that follows comes from the ‘Metals Handbook” I am not sure why they call it a handbook.  It is one of those really big books and is 1,300 pages.  I think it must weight 10 lbs.   This book is a standard in the metal world and is recognized as one of the best “go to” books on metals of all types. 

Measures of machinablility has been defined as a “complex property of a materials that controls the facility with which it can be cut to the size, shape and surface finish required commercially.”  1112 steel is rated at 100%.  All other steels are rated above or below this 100% level, the majority falling considerably below.   12L14 is rated at 190%.  Its machinability is a direct result of a fine dispersion of lead particles throughout the alloy. 
12L14 is considered to be one of the fastest machining bar products produced today.

It is used to maximum advantage for parts where considerable machining is required such as bushings, inserts, couplings and hydraulic hose fittings. With good ductility, these grades are suitable for parts involving bending, crimping or riveting

12L14 is not used for gun barrels due to its strength and toughness, it is used because it is extremely easy to machine and cut the rifling in.

1137 was used by Green Mountain for ML barrels.   1137 is a known gun barrel steel and is considered a low cost, easy machinability and is rated at 160%.  Some of the property numbers for 1137 are fairly similar to 12L14, but the overall characteristics are a bit different.  My Metals Handbook even addresses the use of this steel for gun barrels.

4140 is/was used by Green Mountain for their bp cartridge barrels
This is one of the chromium, molybdenum, manganese low alloy steels noted for toughness, good torsional strength and good fatigue strength
As with all the low alloy steels forming may be done by conventional methods with the alloy in the annealed condition. These alloys have good ductility, but are tougher than plain carbon steel and thus usually require more force, or pressure, for forming.
Characterized by high strength and good impact properties with good machinability, but low weldability.
The following are properties for some of the common barrel steel used.
12L14
Tensile strength 78,300 PSI, Yield strength 60,200 PSI

1137
Tensile strength 108,000 PSI, Yield strength 76,100 PSI

1144
Tensile strength 108,000 PSI, Yield strength 89,900 PSI

4140
Tensile strength 148,000 PSI, Yield strength 95,000 PSI

The above numbers show what the tensile and yield strength for the 4 types of steels listed.  The tensile strength gives us some idea on how tough the steel is.  However, the standard for determining toughness is the Charpy V-notch test.

Notch toughness is the ability or capacity of a metal to yield plastically under high localized stress, such as might occur at the root of a notch.  Notches may be inherent in design or may be the accidental result of tool marks, scratches, voids, minute surface cracks left by grinding, pits etc.

Notch toughness is influenced by the chemical composition and physical properties of the steel.  Temperature can have a big impact (no pun intended) on failure of the Charpy V-notch test.  As temperature decrease, the amount of energy the piece of steel is able to absorb decreases.   This is called transition temperature.  Once a piece of steel is at or beyond its transition temperature the toughness decreases rapidly and the ability for it to yield plastically and not fail is greatly decreased.
I am not 100% sure, but it is my understanding that 12L14 has a transition temperature around 70 degrees F.  I have never worked professionally with 12L14 steel and have never witnessed or reviewed data for Charpy V-notch testing of it.  If anyone has data that supports a different opinion of 12L14 for Charpy V-notch testing I would be interested in that.

I have 3 barrels made by Mark DeHaas and they are 1144.   1144 is not a great or even a good gun barrel steel as the physical properties are concerned.  It is better than 12L14, but not by a large degree.  These barrels are great for accuracy, simply wonderful and I love them.  I can not say enough good things about Mark and his barrels.  Several years ago he switched to using 12L14, when I asked him why, he stated for numerous reasons, cost, availability, easy of machining and because that is what many others are using.   

If 12L14 was the only choice I had, or the best steel available it would make the decision much easier.  However that is not the case in today’s world.  As a consumer I can buy barrels from a few makers that are using steels that are recognized by metallurgist and engineers as an appropriate material for a gun barrel.

Do barrels made of 12L14 fail every day?  Of coarse not.  Have some failed?  Of course.  Might the failure be as the direct result of something the owner/shooter did that was not intended?  Certainly.   You ever shoot your ramrod?   Not get a ball or bullet on the powder and leave a space?  Double load your rifle?

Barrels made from steel that is recognized as good enough for a gun barrel can fail as well, however due to the physical qualities of the steel they have a better safety margin.  Just like the ASME tanks that have a safety factor of 4 built into them.  They are well built but unfortunately there are still failures.

I have several old shotguns that are ML and bp cartridge with damascus barrels, and I shoot them.  The barrels on these guns are certainly not up to the standards for some of the more modern steels that we have available today.  I realize that there is a certain risk associated with shooting these old girls.  Back in the day that these barrels were made there were different quality as well as it comes to barrels.   It is generally known that barrels that are not English barrels may cause one to have some concerns for quality.  Belgium barrels are certainly not noted as being the standard of excellence.  That does not mean that all barrels made in Belgium are bad barrels, and all English barrels are good.  It is my understanding that my Parker 10 ga. hammer gun has Belgium barrels.  Apparently that is where the Parker Company contracted to have their barrels made, and they are considered to be of high quality.   This is why I try to only buy and use 100 – 150 year old guns from makers with known quality parts, including their barrels.  In Greener’s book “The Gun” there is a fairly good section on barrels and construction of them.

Let me be clear, I have never stated that a 12L14 barrel will fail or is likely to fail.  What I have stated and will state that 12L14 is not the best readily available steel to be used as barrel material, and if given a choice, I would not knowing own one.  There are exceptions of course.  If I had a 12L14 barrel in .32 cal. that was a 1” barrel I would certainly consider that over the same barrel in .54 cal. with a thinner wall thickness.

If you have the choice, why would you pick a barrel that is made from steel that is not recognized by any metallurgist as steel that is appropriate for a barrel?    When it came time to buy the barrels for the guns I make I have been buying barrels from makers that use steel that is recognized by the steel industry has being barrel quality.  Not because they are more accurate, simply because they are made from steel that is better suited for this purpose.  Why would I knowingly use questionable parts for guns I am going to be giving my kids?

If you made it this far and you are still sure I am biggest idiot in the world and violently disagree with what I have stated above if you want to send me personal emails in that regard, go ahead.  Most of them are quite humorous.

Like I tell my kids, life is full of decisions’, choose wisely.

fleener

[Dphariss]

It is reported that Ed Rayl uses 8620 steel for barrels. I would never call 8620 a modern rifle barrel steel. 8620 annealed has a tensile strength of 76900psi and a yield strength of 55800psi. These specs are both lower than the specs of 12L14.  12L14 has a tensile strength of 78300 psi and a yield strength of 60200psi
  These are not the only things to be considered but they are the main ones. Although 8620  will harden it will not very much because the carbon content is only .2 om average. That is a very mild steel.
  It is used by some gun makers for barrels of sharps and other single shot rifles. these rifles are intended for use with black powder or very mild forms of modern powder such as 5744.  A low pressure smokeless powder. 8620 is primarily used for parts that will be case hardened.
   A real modern rifle barrel steel would be 4140 or 4150 heat treated. Try buying a 42" swamped barrel made of 4140 or 4150.

Any metallurgist will tell you that the tensile strength of a brittle steel like 12L14 when used as a gun barrel is meaningless.

I don't know enough about 8620 but its similar in some ways to 4140 but has less carbon and a couple of additions. Dan

[bgf]

Jim McLemore did make ml barrels from 4140 or 50 if I remember correctly.  He also made gain twist barrels.  Can't find anything about him now, sadly.

My understanding is he had to slow or halt production due to family health issues.

Just from  filing, 1137 is quite a bit harder than 12l14.  Working on 2 1 1/8 bbl for chunk gun, the 12l14 was a breeze to fit breech plug, file dovetails, etc., whereas the 1137 one took much longer. 

[Mark Elliott]

Not a metallurgist, but I am not sure that fatigue is a problem in iron or steel barrels that are stress relieved. There is little bending or deformation of rifle barrels. In most material fatigue studies such as on bicycle frames, the steel or other fabricated object is subjected to cyclic stress to simulate use, which typically involves "springing" the object in the same directions and with forces generated during actual use. Bicycle frames may be subjected to simulation of use of 20 years, for example.  Then typically the fabricated object undergoes destructive testing to see how much of the original capacity to resist failure was lost in use.

I do not know how you simulate 100,000 rounds fired in a muzzleloading rifle barrel without actually firing it 100,000 times.

Many serious target shooters report having shot their barrels 20,000 times and some report 50,000 times.

Aircraft fuselages are exposed to fatigue by the constant cycle of pressurization and depressurization.    A barrel is similar in that it is pressurized and depressurized.   They destructively test aircraft fuselages.   If they do that, you can destructively test a gun barrel by pressurizing and depressurizing it hydraulically.     Of course, that would cost a lot of money.   I don't know who  would pay for that.   

Perhaps, the cost of the liability isn't worth the expenditure to find out.   Otherwise,  the insurance companies would probably destructively test gun barrels the way they test cars.   The companies that insure us,  certainly know the liability costs.    They are underwriting us based on those costs.     Maybe that should tell us something?

[James Rogers]

I have noticed how proponents usually delineate between muzzle loading gun barrel steel and smokeless gun barrel steel while opponents group them all in one category referring to acceptable gun barrel steel, requiring black powder barrels to the same qualities in a steel that high pressure modern smokeless demand.

[Walks with Fire]

I was looking at the Traditions website the other day and one of their flintlock rifles called the PA Pellet rifle is now being offered with a 1/28 twist chrome moly barrel 26" long. It's the first flint rifle I have ever seen offered with a chrome moly barrel.

The best shooting barrels I have owned have been Green Mountain but I am sure it's not the 1137 steel that is making the difference.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'd have to echo that to some extent; those GM swamped barrels were kick-ares barrels, although having to breech them has always been a pain in the... well, you know, I already mentioned it once in the same sentence.

[snapper]

GM swamped barrels were kick-ares barrels,

I agree.  I have a .54 cal in an English sporting rifle, perc.  And the rifle that Mitch is making me is the same barrel.



fleener

[Dphariss]

Shiloh was making heavy barrels of 1144 at one time for at least one lot (IIRC 1144 designed for shafting and I'm told is very susceptible to breaking at a cut that is not well radiused).  The heavy blanks had to the turned at the muzzle end about 4" to 1 1/4" to fit the gun drill. All was well and good until the blanks were button rifled. Then a significant number 15-20% split from where the rebate started to the "muzzle" .  What fun. This is what started my quest to get a metallurgist involved. I would point out that  4140 was used for the same application with no splitting.... Funny how that works.... But there was a lot of bitching by the lathe guy because it was so tough to turn compared to 1144. Shiloh only used 4140-50 for barrels so far as i know and has for years now.


The prime reason hobby home barrel makers use steels that are NOT gun barrel quality (or better) is its a lot harder to get.  It must be ordered from the mill in a furnace melt quantity. So ordering 50 or 100 tons of steel is not something a ML maker is going to do. Many of the makers of CF barrels have to pool orders to get up to the tonnage needed. Mill run steel is made all the time and made to FAR lower specifications.
Ductility is another term we have to be careful of. Steel may be ductile in one application and brittle in another, like when internally shock loaded like gun barrels are.  No cold rolled steel or a steel loaded with lead, phosphorus or sulfur is going to be ductile when used as a gun barrel. Thus barrels intended to be used for gun barrels, designed for it if you will, are hot rolled,  have no free machining additives and are more carefully made starting with the cleanliness of the furnace (I have read) to assuring the alloy to checking the resulting bars for flaws.

Dan

[Mad Monk]

The thing in all of this is that published data on the strength of a particular steel alloy becomes almost meaningless in a ml gun barrel in the field.   With a normal charge and a normal firing the stresses applied to the steel are a lot different than those applied with a projectile short-started in the bore or a loading where the projectile is "materially" removed from the powder charge.  In this situations we get into explosive loading of the metal at stress application rates far in excessive of the stress rates used in a laboratory testing of the steel.

Back in the early 1960s I ran an Instron tensile testing machine in the lab where we checked PVC compounds used for electrical wire insulation.  A particular lot would be tested at a rate of 12 inches per minute in the test and another set at 20 inches a minute.  Looking at the difference in tensile strength and elongation at the two different speeds.  Then another set after the samples had been allowed to age for 24 hours.  As I was moving to another lab they purchased a stress/strain gauge to clip on the samples to get some other data on the behavior of the PVC compounds.

The factory ml rifles I looked at had design flaws that acted to concentrate stress in particular areas of the barrel.  The amount of metal at the bottom of under rib screw holes scared me at times.  On the patent breech barrels the rear face of the barrel gets rather thin with the threading.  Normal loadings no problem.  I did learn to change the length of my ball starters.  Almost all of those I bought out of the gun shop would park the ball almost directly over the hole for the first under rib screw back from the muzzle.  In at least two blown up barrels I looked at where the ball had been sitting over an under rib screw hole the hole acted as the starting point where the splits in the barrel that then migrated front and back.

You don't hear much about burst ml barrels these days.  Nobody will publish anything if there are accidents.  But when you go back to the late 1970s into the mid-1980s there were a host of them.

[WadePatton]

...Any time you think something is simple you just don't know much about it...

May I quote you on this?  That's the acorn of the Oak. 

[JCKelly]

Eric Kettenburg you, or anyone else, are quite welcome to a pdf of that 3-part services in Muzzle Blasts, Oct-Nov-Dec 1985.

Just send me an email address. Mine can be found on this site.

[Dphariss]

I have noticed how proponents usually delineate between muzzle loading gun barrel steel and smokeless gun barrel steel while opponents group them all in one category referring to acceptable gun barrel steel, requiring black powder barrels to the same qualities in a steel that high pressure modern smokeless demand.

The results of a burst barrel very often cause serious human injury. 
People also like to pretend that low grade steel barrels don't fail in MLs. This has been repeatedly proven to be false and people have been maimed. But its simply not discussed very often. You certainly will not find it in the gun press it might hurt advertising revenue. And after all it MUST be the loaders fault right? A barrel made of a modern alloy and grade of gun barrel steel is virtually impossible to burst with BP unless VERY thin. It may BULGE but its virtually impossible to break one with BP, the pressure levels and the burn rates are too slow. Short started projectiles will not cause brittle failure either.
I have accidentally shot a load that would curl people's hair through a 50 "B" contour GM and it suffered no damage at all.
It matters not at all if the barrel fails at 50000 psi or 16000 psi the potential to maim a human is still very high. Since a cheap steel in a ML is MORE LIKELY to fail at 16000 that the proper steel in a CF rifle at 50000 maybe we need to think about the consequences a little more.

Dan

[boman]

Has anyone with a metallurgical background conducted a study, or is aware of a study, which examines what may be happening with a barrel of such material over time and use?  Not speculation; any kind of study which has really scientifically looked at the effect of repetitive pressure and 'typical' shooting use upon the structure of the steel?  I would be interested to know this.

Or you might try contacting these guys
http://closefocusresearch.com/close-focus-research-ballistic-testing-services

As to the question of liability-----ins. is cheap for the little guy and I would hope that a one man barrel shop would at least have a million dollar liability policy.

As far as cost----I believe the raw material is the least expensive part of the equation. In my mind it would be the tooling to gear up for manufacturing a barrel made of one of the currently accepted barrel steels.  These "one man" barrel shops just don't produce enough product to justify it. Heck GM, one of the largest barrel manufactures in the U.S. , got out of the business for lack of demand. And if I recall Rice senior  told me he only got into the business because used barrel making equipment was available at the time and he could sell his lock business  to the guys that are now L&R. I believe he also had the foresight to realize that Getz barrels were going thru some changes.

Finally There's the saying "If it ain't broke it don't need fixin".

Steve

[jerrywh]

 I think their would be a majority who would agree that the ideal barrel would be made of 4140 or 4150 for muzzle loaders but the fact is it won't ever happen on any large scale.  If their was a market for them they would be for sale. There are a few people who will pay whatever the price for what they want as long as they can sell the gun.  One gun I worked on had a barrel that cost $35,000.00 after it was engraved. I paid for a lot of barrels that cost more than $1000.00 and a couple that were over $2000.00
 However the builders that build those kind of guns are few and far between.  A 20" AR 15 barrel from Brownell cost $374.00. Double the length, make it octagon and swamped and make the rifling hand cut and you can at least triple the price.  Put that up for sale against the 12L14 at $250.00 and the maker is dead in the water before he even starts. Do modern gun barrels blow up?  YEP sure do.
 If any body wants a 4140 muzzle loading barrel Somebody will make you one for a fee.
 
 
 

[boman]

If any body wants a 4140 muzzle loading barrel Somebody will make you one for a fee.

I agree, and if you order 100 of them you may get the cost down to $374.00. I can buy an FN hammer forges m-4 barrel for $255 but then again FN just won the latest contract foe the m4A1 at $77,000 million dollars.

Steve

[jerrywh]

 There is a person on this forum who knows a great deal about this sort of thing. Dave Crisalli  is a rocket engineer and was an ordinance officer in the navy and a graduate of Annapolis. As far as tests go I doubt if he has ever tested a 4140 barrel with black powder.  But the navel guns used black powder.

[Scota4570]

The reason to use the free machining steel is so it cuts easy with the hook or scrape rifling head?  Sounds logical, leaded steel machines beautifully.  OK, but a button barrel can be made cheap with chrome moly steel.  But, ML folks mostly want deep rifling.  On the other hand there are lots of folks who like TC's with shallow rifling.  I have used 45-70 center fire blanks to make muzzle loaders.  They were cheap button barrels.  They shoot really well with patched balls, maxis, and sabots.  Yes, a 42" swamped barrel would a different animal.  For shorter round and octagon barrels they have worked very well for me.  I have not found extra deep rifling to be an  advantage.  In fact deep rounded grooves have been more problematic to make shoot well, for me.  So, that is an option for somebody who feels better by not shooting a leaded steel barrel. Just use a CF blank.   

[flehto]

A lot of sound info on modern bbl steels has been posted and also on 12L14 which many don't consider to be a bbl steel even for MLing pressures. .  But what about the  forge welded skelp bbls of yesteryears and then a little  later on , steels or wrought iron  used for MLing bbls?

Rice bbls are made from 12L14 leaded steel and if one were to choose an "A" weight swamped bbl in the maximum caliber stated in Rice's specs and build a LR around it and then put in the sharp cornered dovetails for the bbl lugs and sights  of which some new builder might make too deep....what then? Are these bbls likely to "blow up"?

Only Rice bbls or other bbl makers using 12L14 steel have info on the failure rates of their bbls through the years and are probably hesitant to offer this info due to hurting their business....but, maybe not depending on their info....which could be good or bad. They probably don't even  like discussions such as this because it might harm their business, but the failure rate info surely would be interesting....whether good or bad.....Fred

 

[rich pierce]

So far, no new data.

I am curious about goals.  The topic was started as asking for data, but there is no new data forthcoming and the discussion seems to be goal-oriented, so I will dig on on that aspect.

The unstated goal of some posting in the topic seems to be this:  to have gun barrel steel, high quality, traditionally shaped, accurate muzzleloading barrels available in many shapes and forms, at a price less than double that of current leaded steel barrels.

The reasons behind this goal seem to be 2:
1) Actual desire for greater safety margin.
2) Reduced liability for professional builders in the situation where a gun barrel fails.

1) is laudable, but until somebody runs side by side tests showing that a 4140 barrel short started with the ball at the dovetail notch will not fail or will fail in a safer manner than leaded steel barrels, it is a supposition that the 4140 barrels are safer.  We all have seen center fire guns with banana or worse failure from a minor mud plug that occurred when somebody slipped and fell, and did not realize some mud got up the muzzle. I agree, on paper, 4140 would be less likely to harm someone with the same unreasonable stress.  But this is why people do experiments: so they have data to back up their well reasoned hypothesis.  As a scientist, theoretical scenarios are just that to me.

2) sounds practical but it seems to me that a family of someone who got injured or killed by doing something dangerous (but unintentional) with their muzzleloader, is going to sue the builder if they are the lawsuit type.  Those bringing a lawsuit should know the gunmaker has no assets worth having, but will have to cast a broad net including the builder, barrel supplier, and barrel manufacturer.  All those people named in the suit will have to get legal representation whether they used 4140 or some other accepted "gun barrel steel" (meaning accepted centerfire gun barrel steel) or something not accepted for centerfire gun barrels.  You can decide whether $20,000 or $100,000 later in lawyer fees, that winning the lawsuit because you used 4140 was a victory. 

[Bob Roller]

Jim McLemore did make ml barrels from 4140 or 50 if I remember correctly.  He also made gain twist barrels.  Can't find anything about him now, sadly.

My understanding is he had to slow or halt production due to family health issues.

Just from  filing, 1137 is quite a bit harder than 12l14.  Working on 2 1 1/8 bbl for chunk gun, the 12l14 was a breeze to fit breech plug, file dovetails, etc., whereas the 1137 one took much longer.

I have been in contact with Jim McLemore several times in the last week and we discussed a Rigby barrel
project. His wife of many years was very ill and he was not able to work for the duration of her illness but
it seems he is again interested. He has stated more than once that he will NOT make ANY barrel from steels that
are not mill certified for gun barrels. I have made the remark that any steel that will stand the hammering of a'full auto gun will certainly hold up to the gentle tickle of a muzzle loader.
When he bought Bill Large's shop equipment a few years ago he found some strips of 1075 spring steel and day before yesterday
I got them in the mail. I will clean these up and maybe use them.
Jim's barrels are not cheap but then there is not ONE person on this forum that can tell me why they should be.
Call him at 1-219-552-4050 if you are interested in his ideas of quality control.
Bob Roller