So... barrel steel discussion here?

[Joe S]

If the 100 ton minimum order is correct for "gun Barrel" certified steel, I don't see many ML barrel makers jumping on that one. That would be enough for what, 20-30 thousand barrels?

Assuming a typical barrel is made from 48" stock, 1 1/2" diameter, that's about 8,314 barrels.  I don't know if that's a one year supply or a ten year supply, but it seems like it could be in a range that is plausible for one of the larger ML manufacturers to consider.  I also don't know if 100 tons is really the minimum order for these steels.

We are digressing from the main thread, I think.

[Pennsylvania Dutchman]

It does look like 4150 is available in small amounts, but is that a certified barrel steel?

John

4140/4150 heat treated hot rolled bar at 28-32 RC is very common and easily obtained, that is not gun barrel certified. I use quite a bit of it in my shop, up to 12" in diameter, for tooling that I make for a couple of local factories. I regularly see small cracks in the material when turning it on the lathe. Fine cracks, 1/4" to 1/2" long x less than .100" deep, usually in the outside 1/2" of the material. I would assume that x-ray would show the cracks, but do they x-ray every bar of gun barrel certified material? I had read somewhere that all LaSalle Stressproof 1144 is x-rayed for cracking. I also machine 41L42 3" OD cold rolled bar for tooling and I have never seen any lead occlusions or cracking. I remember Don Getz mentioning in a post several years ago that when they are turning a barrel blank and find a crack, that they scrap the barrel.
Mark

[JCKelly]

Carl Young that is exactly the information that is needed. Surely a young Computer Guy can look up the vast number of firearms lawsuits held over the last couple of decades.

In the early '90's I was asked to participate in a Remington shogun lawsuit. I did not, both because it would have been a conflict of interest with my employer and because I really don't have much experience with modern shotguns.

The interesting part is that lawyer sent me a list of about two dozen firearms lawsuits that year. Every maker had one or two lawsuits. Remington, however, a very large number, forget details.

However one gets such a list it would be most informative about muzzle loaders. In the absence of John Baird there is no one person keeping track of them.

One last metallurgical comment. Xrays do not find cracks. In steel one uses a magnetic particle inspection method.

I have presented all the metallurgical information you gentlemen need, should you choose to read it.

Ach, weh ist mir, genug bitte

[Mike Brooks]

Dad Gumit. Went and bought a Colerain barrel at a gunshow last  night and now find out it's going to kill me if I shoot it....shucks.....

 I believe 12L14 is here to stay for barrel material. I'd rather use that than seamless tubing stuff.  We've been over this before, I don't think I have read anything new, but it's important to air this subject every now and again. Hey, it's all fun till somebody gets their eye poked out.

[Bob Roller]

If the 100 ton minimum order is correct for "gun Barrel" certified steel, I don't see many ML barrel makers jumping on that one. That would be enough for what, 20-30 thousand barrels?

Assuming a typical barrel is made from 48" stock, 1 1/2" diameter, that's about 8,314 barrels.  I don't know if that's a one year supply or a ten year supply, but it seems like it could be in a range that is plausible for one of the larger ML manufacturers to consider.  I also don't know if 100 tons is really the minimum order for these steels.

We are digressing from the main thread, I think.

There are steel sellers today that will GLADLY sell what ever they have in short sections. I bought a couple of feet
of 8620 and just yesterday made a die holder from a short section.I bought 2 bars of 1018 for Hawken trigger bars
and still have them and they came from Metal Super Markets in Maryland. I have bought short sections of 1144
Stressproof for tumblers and sizing dies. I also bought 50 or more 6 foot sections of 12L14 in 5/32 diameter for
lock screws for very little money.It appears that the days of calling a steel supplier and being rudely told "We don't
deal with people like you"if you don't want a train load.I have had this happen but NOT recently.

Bob Roller

[Eric Kettenburg]

I just did a really quick search, here's an interesting comparison.  Retail pricing for 1.5" diameter rod, 4 ft long, one piece:

12L14:  $47.68
1144 stressproof:  $107.12
4130 normalized:  $87.04
4140 cold finish annealed:  $69.62
8620:  $74.65

None of these are certified or documented gun barrel quality, however.  But interesting comparison; not much of a price difference in the overall cost of a barrel if you're not using certified ordnance/gun barrel steel. 

[Smoketown]

OK, it’s been established that YOU can buy ANY steel of YOUR choice. (It only takes money.)

Please make sure that YOU also have enough material for a breech plug too.

Then, YOU can VT, MT, PT, UT and RT it to check for “discontinuities” and send it back if YOU are not completely satisfied.
(Please be aware that not all “discontinuities” are “rejectable”… Even in “gun barrel certified” steels.)

Now, when YOU finally have YOUR perfect piece of material, YOU will have to find someone who will bore, rifle, breech and profile the piece.

Once that is done YOU can “proof fire” said barrel and then re-do the VT, MT, PT, UT and RT to make sure that no NEW discontinuities have appeared or, that the existing ones hadn’t grown to a “rejectable” size.

Those with a scientific bent will then make EMAT transducers that will mimic ram-rod pipes.
The battery pack and transmitter can be stored in the "typically unused patch-box" and ALL data will be immediately transmitted using wi-fi to YOUR smart phone.

YOU will have to “record the readings” when the rifle is taken from a heated house to the cold or frigid hunting environment as well as when it is taken from an air-conditioned house to a sunny and hot shooting range.
Don’t forget to “record” the same in reverse!

Then, the readings YOU took will have to be done again while firing the rifle.

After that, YOU will have to develop an “acceptable threshold” for the “normal” moans, groans, creaks, cracks, and pops that the rifle makes while at rest and “when in use”.

Don’t forget that YOU should VT, MT, PT, UT and RT at regular intervals to make sure that YOUR previously recorded discontinuities have not grown to rejectable proportions.
(YOU weren’t going to rely on EMAT alone were YOU?)

Then again, one could just go back to throwing stones … Just be mindful of those pesky ricochets! 


Cheers,
Smoketown

PS

I wonder what kind of steel was used in THOSE barrels??       Reply #12.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=41884.msg407700#msg407700

[jerrywh]

I just did a really quick search, here's an interesting comparison.  Retail pricing for 1.5" diameter rod, 4 ft long, one piece:

12L14:  $47.68
1144 stressproof:  $107.12
4130 normalized:  $87.04
4140 cold finish annealed:  $69.62
8620:  $74.65

None of these are certified or documented gun barrel quality, however.  But interesting comparison; not much of a price difference in the overall cost of a barrel if you're not using certified ordnance/gun barrel steel.

      I Am a Master Engraver  in the FEGA.  I engrave modern and antique firearms composed of 12L14, 1137, 8620, and 4140 or 4150 steel. I also do a fair amount of machine work on them. There is a vast difference between 12L14 and cutting 4140 or 4150.  I can cut 12L14 all day long with a standard carbon or HSS graver and only sharpen 2 or 3 times. With 4140 or 4150 I must use carbide gravers with a totally different geometry. These gravers are not common carbide but they are called C max.  C Max is a very special type of carbide designed for extreme stress.
  When cutting 4140 or 4150 I sometimes only get three or four cuts before having to resharpen them. It takes more time sharpening than engraving especially if the cuts are deep.
   Time is money.  Modern guns use 4140 mostly. The rifling in modern guns are extremely shallow compared to a muzzle loader. The major cost of machining a muzzle loading barrel out of 4140 would be in the machining and the tooling. Most if not all the modern gun barrels are heat treated also. The price of the steel is a minute part of the cost of manufacturing a barrel.
  If one were to make a barrel out of a truck axle they would get a good idea of the problems involved.

[JCKelly]

Smoketown, the rifle in that video looked European, I would guess Spanish, and definitely not American.

I believe - correct me please, if wrong - that SpanishItalianGerman gunmakers are required by law to use some kind of proper (low phosphorus, low sulfur) steel, not free-machining.

For what it's worth, they might actually proof test the barrels first. Whatever they used in this rifle was tough stuff, bulging rather than shattering.

I had long thought that smokeless blows a gun up right at the breech, from couple of old photos & this sure makes it clear.

[Eric Kettenburg]

  If one were to make a barrel out of a truck axle they would get a good idea of the problems involved.

That's a great quote! 

[JCKelly]

I posted this recently under shooting, dunno how to find it again.

Anyway, it is a good ol' hand forged wrought iron barrel. About .26 caliber, 15/16" across the flats. Plenty strong.

Except someone brazed up a crack or seam at the breech.

This is how that braze repair, now green, looks after someone fired a blank salute with it at Friendship. No injury, also no report on clothing condition.

Lent to me by the late Maxine Moss. Guess I'll return it to NMLRA museum through Judy Morgan at the Lapeer show.

You might want to be cautious about shooting guns with braze repaired barrels. Brass doesn't form red rust but it sure turns into green stuff that is no longer metal, in presence of sulfur. Our Holy Black has about 10% sulfur, you all recall.

[Smoketown]

I posted this recently under shooting, dunno how to find it again.

Anyway, it is a good ol' hand forged wrought iron barrel. About .26 caliber, 15/16" across the flats. Plenty strong.

Except someone brazed up a crack or seam at the breech.

This is how that braze repair, now green, looks after someone fired a blank salute with it at Friendship. No injury, also no report on clothing condition.

Lent to me by the late Maxine Moss. Guess I'll return it to NMLRA museum through Judy Morgan at the Lapeer show.

You might want to be cautious about shooting guns with braze repaired barrels. Brass doesn't form red rust but it sure turns into green stuff that is no longer metal, in presence of sulfur. Our Holy Black has about 10% sulfur, you all recall.

Mr. Kelly,

Cool picture.

Not enough information and too many unanswered questions.

Do you have any end view photos?

Was any testing done?

A 15/16" barrel with an approximately 5/16" hole down the center leaves 5/16" of wall thickness and it blows firing a "blank salute load"?

The brazed area appears to be less than 1/2 the thread length of the breech.
Unless the surface breaking discontinuity (crack) was longer than the brazed area, why would it split where the pressure should be non-existent?

Why did it split down both sides and not just rip open along one side following the nearest rifling groove?

Inquiring minds want to know...   

Cheers,
Smoketown
A burned out gunsmith, brokedown welder and CWI with current MT, RT, UT and VT experience.   

[Mike Brooks]

I have seen far more pics of blown up modern gun barrels that I have 12L14 ML barrels. If you aren't paying attention to what you're doing or are a moron you can blow up anything.

I was at F-ship one year stumbling around the flea market when I came across some of those African bead dealers. They had a whole pile of African ML guns leaning against a tree. They actually had conduit material for barrels same thickness at both ends...just plain conduit with a breech plug screwed into the end. They threaded the nipple into the breech plug.  These had been fired in the past and not cleaned and showed the rust from it. Incredibly these guns showed no blow outs, quite surprising.

[Gaeckle]

I posted this recently under shooting, dunno how to find it again.

Anyway, it is a good ol' hand forged wrought iron barrel. About .26 caliber, 15/16" across the flats. Plenty strong.

Except someone brazed up a crack or seam at the breech.

This is how that braze repair, now green, looks after someone fired a blank salute with it at Friendship. No injury, also no report on clothing condition.

Lent to me by the late Maxine Moss. Guess I'll return it to NMLRA museum through Judy Morgan at the Lapeer show.

You might want to be cautious about shooting guns with braze repaired barrels. Brass doesn't form red rust but it sure turns into green stuff that is no longer metal, in presence of sulfur. Our Holy Black has about 10% sulfur, you all recall.

I have a question with regards to this picture.

What is the lumpy thing protruding out of the one side? What is that? For a 29 caliber on a 15/16's tube, there doesn't appear to be much of a shoulder for a breach plug, it sorta looks like the threads just disappear into the barrel itself. Shouldn't there be a sizable shoulder for such a small hole in a large barrel?

[JCKelly]

That Lumpy Thing is the bolster into which is screwed the nipple. Which is still there and just fine.

Unless the surface breaking discontinuity (crack) was longer than the brazed area, why would it split where the pressure should be non-existent?

Because just forward of the breech plug the pressure, and circumferential stress, is the greatest. The stress does not just disappear a half inch or so back.

Why did it split down both sides and not just rip open along one side following the nearest rifling groove?

Because it split where it was already cracked. Brazing up that crack was not a long-term cure. Be a good idea for y'all neither to braze up barrel cracks, nor to shoot such old barrels as have been brazed.

As my Pennsylvania Dutch college sweetheart would have said (I think), Oy Gevalt des Gottes! Gevalt, Gevalt. She was pretty smart, so I reckon she might have said a bit more.

[JCKelly]

Gaeckle, forgot you asked for another photo. The breechplug was 1/2" dia, 1/2" long, about 11 threads over that half inch. Brazed crack was about 5/16" long.

I just this morning took a closer look closer at that break. I was wrong, I do not believe it was the brazed crack itself that was the problem What had been brazed was about 5/16" of a "cold weld" about 3" long. That weld seam/dry weld was about half way through the barrel wall. Whatever the proper terminology, I do recall I heard an Old Welding Engineer boss called it "Dry Weld", it is where the barrel forger hammered the metal together but it did not stick. The Dry Weld does not really show in this photo.

Harpers Ferry and Springfield Armory proof tested their barrels, those that failed proof were charged to the forger. Failure rate varied from 15% to about 40%, depending upon whether forged by hand, or under a tilt hammer. Also seems to me Mad Monk said something about Harpers Ferry using a very poor grade of iron at one time.
 
Private gunmakers were under no legal obligation to proof their barrels. I think a good proof load might have found that really, really bad weld.

Don't believe there are any proof laws today in the US. I do know that Ruger proof tested my stainless Old Army.



Brooks, we agree on one thing. No, I would not use seamless tubing either. Seamless tube sometimes is NOT seamless, and the long crack is on the inside bore, where it is least likely to be found. A friend once turned down a piece of heavy walled 1018 tube for me to use as a flint pistol barrel. Whilst turning down the swamped part he saw machining oil bleeding out of a crack. Oh. Didn't use that one. Also at my work I twice saw I.D. cracks in extruded seamless pipe of 310 heat resistant alloy (25% chromium 20% nickel, think stainless on Steroids), also another less common heat resistant grade.

[Gaeckle]

JC, do you suppose by the looks of the threads that at some point in time that barrel had been rebreeched with a finer thread count breech plug? I have seen (and have in my possesion) several original breach plugs and for the most part they are tapered and very coarse in threads. The old breech plugs I'm refering to have'nt many threads, maybe 4 to 5 at most. I'm sure you've seen these and know what I speaking of. What's your opinion?

[jerrywh]

 It is important to note that it does not look like the breach plug blew out because the threads are intact.  I have removed a lot of breach plugs from originals and have yet to find one that was fit to a shoulder in the barrel. All the ones I have removed look like this one as far as a shoulder is concerned.
 Those threads do look sort of modern compared to the original ones I have seen.

[TMerkley]

I think there is a possibility when they installed that plug, which looks modern to me as well, they may have put "A LOT" of torque on the plug and may have caused it to "Wedge" apart a little where the seem was.  Just Speculation.

[Gaeckle]

I think there is a possibility when they installed that plug, which looks modern to me as well, they may have put "A LOT" of torque on the plug and may have caused it to "Wedge" apart a little where the seem was.  Just Speculation.

That is something to ponder, I would have never had thought about that.....great speculation on your part.

[Goo]

[Has anyone with a metallurgical background conducted a study, or is aware of a study, which examines what may be happening with a barrel of such material over time and use?  Not speculation; any kind of study which has really scientifically looked at the effect of repetitive pressure and 'typical' shooting use upon the structure of the steel?  I would be interested to know this.
[/quote]


Has anyone mentioned UL Labororatories yet?    They test just about anything for any purpose.   Perhaps they have test data for metal fatigue as it applies to gun barrels.      Is there a set of standards put forth by the FTC ?   Let's look at the variables here, the working load instantaneous build of pressure and then timeline release of pressure as the charge of gas expands and pushes the bullet along the length of the barrel.   The stresses are going to be different at almost every point along the length of the barrel.    The one factor that most likely makes the use of the different steels mentioned during the thread is the pressure release through the touch hole.    What happens inside a barrel during firing is a timeline event and the barrel most likely functions as a whole to host this event. 

[somehippy]

This thread made me think of this 
http://blog.onlinemetals.com/replace-that-rusty-barrel-on-your-old-turkey-rifle-with-a-piece-of-4130-round-tube/

Came across it a while back in my interweb meanderings

[JCKelly]

Nice idea, but seamless tubing is NOT always seamless. On rare occasion there can be a rather deep, long crack on the inside of that tube.

I don't believe it matters much what grade of steel is involved.

My relevant personal experience is some heavy-walled 1018 tubing a friend was turning down for a pistol barrel. He stopped when he saw machine oil weeping out of a long crack. The crack began on the inside. Kinda hard to see...

Work experience was the same type of crack in two seamless heat resistant alloy pipes. The first being type 310 - think Stainless on Steroids (25%chromium 20% nickel). The second was a proprietary heat resistant alloy, also lots of chromium & nickel.

Onlinemetals should know better. Betcha Daddy Company ThyssenKrupp does. Perhaps I might drop them a word.

[somehippy]

From my readings before this thread I assumed "seemless" tubing was  not a very good idea, I just find it perplexing why online metals (which seems to have a following of loyal clients) would suggest the idea.  I realize it is only more material they are trying to sell.  But being a manufacturer or distributer you would think they would be more cautious or worried about potential liability.  The link I posted seems rather light hearted and care free, as though no troubles could arise, and there is no regard to safety precautions or measure to be taken working with and using said material as a muzzle loader barrel.  It kind of worries me to think someone might just take that blog posting for granted and assume DOM is just fine without doing adequate research.  I'm not suggesting or advocating anything in the link I posted, I just remembered coming across it and thought I'd let you more knowledgeable folk chew on it here...   

[jerrywh]

 Kelly.
   About 15 years ago I made a real nice pistol barrel out of a piece seamless  tubing. Everything looked great until the final polish. When I got down to  the 1000 grit there were a lot of small scratches I couldn't get out . After a while Out of desperation I decided to check it out under a microscope. To my surprise there were dozens of small cracks all over the surface.  That scared the heck out of me. That was the end of my making barrels out of it. I fixed that piece so it could never be used for a barrel.  Before that I had made some very good barrels out of Shelby seamless  tubing.
 Everything I did was proofed by English black powder proof specs. Another friend of mine , now deceased, made a blunderbuss barrel out of a piece of the same thing. He went to proof it and it exploded the first shot with a standard 12 ga. load of 3 drams ffg goex.