South Carolina Longrifles?

[Marcruger]

Hey Gang,

I have a question (or two) for y'all. 

Why is it that we have so many recorded North Carolina longrifles documented now (thank you Michael Briggs and Bill Ivie) but so few South Carolina guns? 

South Carolina certainly wasn't poorer during the 1750-1850 time period, though perhaps the coastal rice area held much of the wealth. 

My books show few longrifles truly attributable to SC.  Are there books I am missing?

I do realize that many of the coastal guns would have been English import smooth rifles or fowlers, and shotguns today are still a weapon of versatility in coastal SC. 

I wonder if western SC longrifles get lumped in with "Southern Mountain Rifles"? 

Were there no builders of the talent exhibited by Piedmont NC makers like the Kennedy family, the Voglers, etc? 

I could use some schooling here.  Bob Hill, any direction I should look? 

Best wishes,   Marc

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

... I'm no expert by any means on the subject  , but have a little knowledge on Carolina rifles...I know the Peden family gunsmiths of the Western mountain region built a rifle strikingly similar to rifles of the Western NC mountain region...You pose a good question.....It does seem that the   Lowland Plantation areas of SC could support gunsmiths whose "Art" rifles would equal those of the Piedmont NC rifles... Wonder if there actually were any...?

[J Hollis]

As a South Carolinian I have often wondered about this topic.  Does anyone know the origin of colonel John Thomas' rifle? It was captured in 1781 and is still around. Is it of Pennsylvania origin, South Carolina, or somewhere in between?

[looper]

Here's one that was built in Greenville County. http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=42473.0

[oakridge]

I've seen two rifles marked  "P. & J. W. Hoy  Millville, S. C."

[Mark Elliott]

This is just conjecture, but longrifle culture existed primarily in the mountains or on the edge of the mountains.    South Carolina, because of its shape and geography, had fewer such areas.     Just a thought.

[Dennis Glazener]

As a South Carolinian I have often wondered about this topic.  Does anyone know the origin of colonel John Thomas' rifle? It was captured in 1781 and is still around. Is it of Pennsylvania origin, South Carolina, or somewhere in between?

Here it is http://www.carolinamilitia.com/colonel-john-thomas-sr-spartan-regiment/

FWIW I greatly enlarged those small photos of the John Thomas rifle and it sure doesn't look like a Rev War gun to me. I suspect the English may have done a lot of work on it after it ended up in England.
Dennis

[BOB HILL]

Marc,
There isn't a lot to be found in print on S.C. gunmakers, compared to N.C.  Gunsmiths of the Carolinas 1660-1870 by Whisker,Bryan,Russo and McKnight has a lot on the gunsmiths but not many pictures of work.

Mark,
It does seem that more gunmakers were in the piedmont and mountain areas. I have always felt these trades were brought down as settlers moved down, just as in N.C. These were the same people.

Dennis,
Durs Egg presented a bill in Jan. 1803 for a lot of work he had done to this rifle. Two of the changes were a lock and trigger of his design. This is the rifle on page 526 of RCA vol. ll. Bivens felt this rifle was built by James Roberts of Spartanburg Co, S.C.

I have some other information I'll have to hunt up. Guns were being built and repaired all over this state. They also were importing a lot of finished guns and found a ready market in the coastal areas.

[Marcruger]

Thank you Bob and the others posting here. 

Bob, I agree that in many cases gunmakers moved south.  All the way from PA through VA, into NC and most likely on into SC and GA as well. 

I'll have to dig back through my books, but one laid out a good case that the coastal regions of NC and SC were dominated by imported English guns as you said, usually smoothbores.  They were easy to obtain along the coast due to imports of course, and the thick terrain favored the versatility of smoothbores.  That said, I do recall an ad for a gunsmith in Wilmington NC advertising his services, so coastal gunsmiths undoubtedly existed.  Interesting that Bill Ivie and Michael Briggs did not turn up any "schools" in coastal NC. 

I'd love to see a Bill Ivey grade book on SC rifles!

Thanks again all.   Best wishes,  Marc

[BOB HILL]

Sorry,meant to type James Robertson for attributed maker of the John Thomas rifle. Search Poyas on the contemporary makers site for an interesting Charleston rifle. Google William Bartell rifle for another rilfle made here in my area. Bartell was a man of many talents,son of a Hessian soldier captured at the battle of Mingo here. He kept a journal as his father and son also did. Part of his and his son's journals were found and printed by the Three Rivers Historical Society. He tells of the building of this rifle in his jounal. He also makes mention of taking his rifle to a (Captain, if my memory hasn't failed me) Murphy and leaving it on his way to Kingstree. Later he mentions stopping back by to check on his rifle. There is a John Murphy listed in Whisker's book in Williamsburg Co S.C. After this rifle resurfaced, the pictures show a very professionally done engraved silver name plate in the barrel. I believe Murphy may have been doing this work while he had the rifle. My son told me about a nice rifle someone brought  by the museum that had a silver nameplate with Murphy's name on it. I'm suposed to go see it and hope to get pictures. Sorry for rambling so. I have been expecting Don Bruton to chime in. He has many years in the study of these S.C. guns.
Bob

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis,
Durs Egg presented a bill in Jan. 1803 for a lot of work he had done to this rifle. Two of the changes were a lock and trigger of his design. This is the rifle on page 526 of RCA vol. ll. Bivens felt this rifle was built by James Roberts of Spartanburg Co, S.C.

Now I remember hearing that story but for some reason I did not connect it to this rifle.

Dennis

[Marcruger]

I was hoping my questions my jiggle your brain cells Bob.  I figured you know a lot about the ones from the Palmetto State.  Thank you again.  I look forward to talking with you in person about these one day.....hopefully soon.  Best wishes,   Marc

[WElliott]

The late Harley MacIntosh spent years studying SC guns and built a very nice collection. Unfortunately, I am unaware of any publication of his research. Many guns were built in Charleston. There was another concentration of gunsmiths toward the western part of SC.

There are photographs in the ALR Library of a great rifle buit in Spartanburg, SC by William Reed.  I am aware of at least two other rifles by Reed. Click on William Reed under Southern guns to see a great, early SC longrifle.

Wayne

[BOB HILL]

Wayne, South Carolina Wildlife published a book on hunting years ago that showed two of Reed's rifles in an article. Years ago, Someone brought another buttstock he had found in a thrash pile to show me. It had a fine patchbox. It also had  an inlay that was identical to one that was featured in the article in the SCW book. I was told about Mr. McIntosh's collection when I had just started building rifles. If I had known how willing to share infomation the people involved in this work are, I would not have been reluctant to approach him. My loss.

[cshirsch]

I owned the William Bartell rifle and sold it back to a family member.  Chris Hirsch

Dennis,
Durs Egg presented a bill in Jan. 1803 for a lot of work he had done to this rifle. Two of the changes were a lock and trigger of his design. This is the rifle on page 526 of RCA vol. ll. Bivens felt this rifle was built by James Roberts of Spartanburg Co, S.C.

Now I remember hearing that story but for some reason I did not connect it to this rifle.

Dennis

[Goo]

Just speculation: Maybe a large number of South Carolina guns we're captured, lost, confiscated etc during the war between the states.   After the war there was extreme hardship and those that weren't lost got used up and worn out.   

[BOB HILL]

Chris, I have not had the opportunity to study the Bartell rifle, but look forward to it. I sure felt familiar with it after following the building of it in those journals. What a wonderful find you made.
Goo, I am sure this was the fate of many Southern guns. Either hauled off, destroyed or used up.
Bob

[Elnathan]

Patrick Hoy, Spartanburg County, 1815-25:

https://mesda.org/item/collections/long-rifle/2124/

It has a bone buttplate and toeplate, which was apparently a regional trait if the writeup is to be believed.

[Jay Close]

I have a memory of an iron mounted rifle by Stephen Crane (?) who resided for at least a while in York Co. SC before moving off to GA. I recall it having a four-piece box with a heart shaped cutout in the finial. Late flintlock. Perhaps illustrated by Whisker? This ring a bell for anyone else?

[snrub47]

Bone heal and toe plate signed by M C Martin.




 

[Hungry Horse]

Thomas Neal was listed as a gun stocker, among other things on his enlistment with the New Acquisition Dragoons during the American Revolution. The New Acquisition was a part of south western North Carolina that became part of South Carolina after a border adjustment. This is not far from York South Carolina.
 Family legend says Thomas Neal restocked salvaged damaged muskets for the American rebels before he was killed in action, during the war.

  Hungry Horse

[smokepole45cal]

Michael Briggs would be a good person to ask. He gave a great presentation at MESDA/Old Salem in Sept 2016 and spoke of some SC and GA gunmakers.

[BOB HILL]

Jay, this rifle does ring a bell, but can’t remember where I saw it. It’ll come to me later when I’m not trying to remember.
Bob

[heinz]

Interesting rifle.  I do like that one furniture.

I recently relocated to the Grenville SC area.  South Carolina rifles are interesting.  The Greenfield County was a Cherokee country until the American Revolution.  One of the early major roads was Buncombe road leading the early Buncombe County NC, a southern mountain rifle building area.
South Carolina was the major southern area of conflict in the revolution.

[Jay Close]

I found the probably SC rifle I was remembering, the one signed Stephen Crain. It's illustrated in Whisker's "Gunsmiths of the Carolinas, 1660 - 1870" and in Jerry Noble's first volume of "Notes on Southern Longrifles". I misremembered much of Crain's history. Seems he is first located in Warren Co. NC which is in the northeast of the state, really on the fringes of the longrifle heartland. Then he appears in Chester Co. SC which, along with York and Lancaster Co. make up what the tourism folks now call the "Olde English District" of the state. Rolling hills rising to the mountains. The King's Mt. Battle was in York Co. Stephen Crain dies in Chester Co (1833), but a son appears later in MS.

Based on the photos in those two books, I'd hazard an association with the Kennedy family of the Bear Creek school, NC. The rifle is iron mounted (I think), stock architecture similar to some of the Kennedy work, captured lid box, simple spear point finial on the box with heart cutout reminiscent of some of the work by Davidson (James River Basic school) in VA. I've always admired the utilitarian style of this rifle. I do  not know where it resides currently.