location of entry pipe

[yip]

 ideally what the correct location of the entry pipe Lancaster style rifle,measurement wise?

[L. Akers]

It kinda depends on the over-all dimentions of the stock, but on average, about 13" forward of the barrel breech.

[yip]

thanks L Akers; it's what a buddy of mine said, so i'll go with that..............yip

[Mike Brooks]

Also, I find the bottom side of the stock to be the ideal location for most applications.

[Lucky R A]

    13 inches is about a inch longer than normal.  This location depends on a number of other factors such as the barrel length etc.  On a shorter barrel a shorter forearm better balances the look of the rifle.  12" works well for a 42-44" barrel.  I might consider 13" for a 46-48" barrel.   I agree w/ Mike on the location, anywhere else makes it rough to get the ram rod in the hole.....
Ron

[David Rase]

Also, I find the bottom side of the stock to be the ideal location for most applications.

Except when you are building a swivel breech.
David

[flehto]

W/ the 44"-46" bbls that I use, the stepdown from the finial to the pipe is 12" from the breech end,...makes for a slender looking LR.....Fred

[Lucky R A]

   I think you are twisting things a bit Dave!

[Joe S.]

Hmmmmm....so that wasn't some sort of old time sighting devise I mounted on the barrel

[Long John]

Yip,

I have my own opinion, which is probably different than everybody else's.  I like to put the entry pipe so that the distance from the trigger to the entry pipe is equal to the distance from the trigger to the back surface of the butt plate.  It just seems to look "nice" to me that way.   To me the length of the barrel doesn't matter that much, but, I've never made a really short rifle, it might then.   It is a very subjective thing, I guess.  I think that you should place it so that it looks "right" in the context of the whole gun - not a fixed dimension.  But that's just my opinion.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Acer Saccharum]

I offer a consideration: If you are pretty close to finish weight of the gun, see where it balances in your hand. If your hand is going to be gripping the ramrod instead of the grip of the forestock, move the entry pipe toward the muzzle.

If you are building from a particular 'school', eg. Lancaster, Reading, Lehigh, etc, refer to the books or originals.

[yip]

Thanks big john and acer

[Acer Saccharum]

This is a short rifle, but I thought it would look dumb with two pipes, so I moved the rear pipe very close to the lock, maybe 6" or 7" away? I put it where I thought it would look right.

https://flintrifles.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/tc-a-006.jpg

[jerrywh]

ideally what the correct location of the entry pipe Lancaster style rifle,measurement wise?

   Many years ago I was wondering about the same thing so I went through My books like RCA on long rifles and measure all about 100 of them for a ratio hoping to find some kind of formula that I could use. I found that on average the entree thimble or the forearm step was  about equal to the  distance  from the center of the but plate to the front trigger. I have been using that formula for a long time. It does not figure out that way on guns with shorter barrels. Remember that almost all the originals had a shorter pull than our do today. Some of the originals had a pull of only 12" especially on Jeager rifles.

[Goo]

What about the 3-5 rule?  Werent all proportion decisions chosen by dividing the distance into 8 sections then split by a 3-5 ratio for beauty and balance?

[Turtle]

What Acer said. I wait till the gun is mostly finished with all the hardware on, and put the entry thimble or entry hole so that when balanced  only my first two fingers wrap around the entry pipe. It just feels better that way.
                                            Turtle

[Long John]

Mr. Goo,

Welcome to ALR.

You might find a degree of skepticism about a "3 - 5 rule."  There are some in the gun-making community who have co-opted the ancient Greek philosophy of the "golden mean" from ancient Athens and combined it with the ancient Greek fascination with the 3-4-5 right triangle to come up with a theory I have been accused of referring to as the "grouchy moon".  According to the theory of the grouchy moon there is a "magical ratio" of 3.?? to 5.? that is a guaranteed formula for artistic bliss.   I have never used the theory of the grouchy moon in the construction of anything, including rifles, which probably explains why my guns look so crappy.

The ancient Greeks, not having TV, radio, videogames and Facebook, pondered things numerical in their free time and were fascinated with the fact that the ONLY right triangle whose sides were integers is the 3-4-5 right triangle.  All other right triangles, ones with a 90 degree angle at one apex, have at least one side that is a fractional length.  Pythagoras, of Pythagorean Theorem fame, proved that the 3-4-5 right triangle is the one and only.  The 3-4-5 right triangle became the basis for almost all ancient Greek architecture as these proportions were deemed to be "special", handed down from the gods.  Concurrently, in Athens there was the popular notion that the ideal person was one who was totally average - not extreme in any physical dimension.  This is why all those ancient Athenian Greek statues are of people with "perfect proportions - no double-D cups nor double-A cups, no skinnies nor chubbies.  The average or "mean" was seen by Athenians as the ideal form as intended by the gods.  Athenian philosophy used the term "golden mean" for this concept.   Somehow these two disparate tidbits of ancient philosophy got mashed together in the concept of the grouchy moon.  Don't ask me how - I don't know.

So now you know more about ancient Greece than you ever wanted.  And the hornet's nest has been kicked.  Take cover!

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[jerrywh]

What about the 3-5 rule?  Werent all proportion decisions chosen by dividing the distance into 8 sections then split by a 3-5 ratio for beauty and balance?

 No. 95% do not match that rule exactly.  They very anywhere from a lot to a tiny bit.  But most of them are close so -----what the heck. That rule actually existed in Europe for at least 200 years as far as I can figure. Most of them don't match it either. There is no formula for beauty except a lot of beer maybe.

[BOB HILL]

Many years ago when I first read about the 3-5 ratio, I was trying to explain what I'd read to an old friend, Alvin Outlaw. Al was one of the most talented folks I've ever known. He had no formal art training. After I finished, in his country accent, he said  that's just "papotion" we already do that. He then pulled a ruler out and showed me on work we both had done. I know this was formally taught, but since then I've always wondered how many times that we see it used it was just putting things in  "papotion" naturally..... Bob

[Goo]

Ok a bit late in on this reply but I just noticed ( thank you for the ancient Greek info) so now that I am aware I'm kicking the hornets nest............ .    I purchased a golden mean or 3-5 caliper and started using it on photographs in the Grinslade fowler book.    Much to my suspicious curiosity here , but, Sure seems to be a lot of that ratio occurring in those pictures.    Butt plate finials ,barrels , lock plates side plates, And , to attempt to stay on topic the entry pipe seems to be for the most part located below where the 3-5 meets same as the wedding bands or transition point of octagon to round .    Oddly enough the same point seems to be for the most part the balance point of the gun.  Also the rear sights usually end up on rifles at the same general point + or - a small amount.  Nowww I'm new at this so what I am saying is these are my observations or coininsidences not an attempt to set forth any absolutes 

[Thom]

Most rifles in Kindig's "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in it's Golden Age" correspond to the golden mean. If I were stranded on an island and could have one book. That would be it.
Thom

[davec2]

Jerry,

"There is no formula for beauty except a lot of beer maybe.".........Cracked me up. 

Having been a Navy sailor for half of my life, I think I intuitively understood the principle but never recognized the truth of that statement so clearly put.  I might have to engrave that line on a powder horn or patch box.......or something ! 

Thanks for the laugh

Dave C

[rich pierce]

I'm a skeptic. Ive seen cases where on this gun folks see the golden mean works measuring these 3 points to determine a dimension.  On the next gun they use different points to show the golden mean is in play. When you have a dozen possible reference points one could find the golden mean, the silver mean, or the copper mean one way or another.

If used consistently (distance from a to b = 3/5 of distance from a to c) from gun to gun I am more convinced.

[jerrywh]

   Years ago I measured about 200 different long rifles in books and found that what Long John says is as good as it gets.  The distance from the center of the butt plate to the trigger is equal to the distance from the trigger to the entree thimble hole. That is an average.  Jeagers and other short barrel guns are different.

[flehto]

The LR shown below has a 46" bbl and the entry pipe step is 12" from the breech end of the bbl  and the LOP is 13-3/4". The dim from the trigger to the pipe step down is approx. 14-1/2".  Never have used any "rule" in locating the entry pipe and perhaps the dims aren't "right on", but the LRs look OK. Shown below is a BC LR w/ the above dims. The 3rd pic down is a Lancaster w/ the same dims, but w/ a 44" bbl.......Fred






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