Powders?

[shooter93]

Has anyone experimented with the various brands of black powder?....Geox, Swiss etc. I've read where Swiss is considerably faster and I'm curious if anyone has found an accuracy difference in a muzzleloader with various powders. Thanks.

[swordmanjohn]

A few days ago i went to dixons and bought some swiss. I was told its the best and burns cleaner and is used by serious competition shooters. It was 25 $ a pound and comes in a plastic container. I have not tried it yet but look forward to it.

[Kirrmeister]

Has anyone experimented with the various brands of black powder?....Geox, Swiss etc. I've read where Swiss is considerably faster and I'm curious if anyone has found an accuracy difference in a muzzleloader with various powders. Thanks.

I used Swiss No. 2 for some time, but for me the fouling was to hard and crispy, very difficult to get out of the barrel. I changed to WANO PP, it has not more fouling, but the fouling stays very long soft and can be wiped out easily. Accuracy is the same. Furthermore I'm planing to use Pyrodex.

Regards

Kirrmeister

[northmn]

We had a thread on that a while back, with most claiming Swiss was a little hotter grain for grain at maybe 10-15% difference (90 grains of Swiss=100 of GOEX in velocity)  I did compare Graf's to GOEX and found no real difference over the chronograph.  Have not had a chance to compare accuracy.

DP

[Kirrmeister]

Graf's is like WANO!

[Wyoming Mike]

Of the powders I have tried, Shutzen and Grafs seem to be pretty close to GOEX.  The one pound of Swiss I won years ago was a little hotter than GOEX.  I didn't notice that the fouling was any worse than GOEX but the formula may have changed a little in the twenty years since I used it.

I do like KIK.  It is also a little hotter than GOEX and seems to burn a little cleaner.  Not much but enough to notice.  I went through 25 lbs. of it about a year ago and was going to get another 25 pounds but found a deal on GOEX bulk for $9.00 a pound so went with it instead.

[Daryl]

About all we can get around here is GOEX.  I would like to get my mits on some of the C&H we used to shoot in quantity, years ago. It was very accurate, although underpowered compared to GOX and now GOEX.

Of the different powders I've used over the years (4 or so labels) none have fouled that was noticeable over any others.  They all shoot cleanly, as I wipe the last shot as I load the next.  The lube on the patch around the ball does the wiping.  I've not had any buildups with any powder.  I do recall, years ago, that 3F did produce more fouling than 2f. Today, with only GOEX being used, there is no no notable difference in fouling in the bore between granulation's.  This is due to the lubes and method of loading that we use, I am sure, as others say they notice a difference. This all reverts back to patch thickness, amount and type of lube.

[Longknife]

Daryl, Did you get that turned around???/I found that FF fouled more than FFF, but I am south of the border too!!!! ?...Ed

Kirrmeister, Research the pyrodex, it will not work in your NW trade gun!!!!...Ed

[Dphariss]

I shoot Swiss almost exclusively. I really like the stuff.
150 gr FFG is simply wonderful in my 16 bore rifle.
90 gr of FFFG works really good in my 54 far better than GOEX. Goex fouls hard in the breech, Swiss is much softer.

75 grains in a 50 cal GM fouls kinda hard at the breech. Big surprise since this in not typical.
Just ran into this yesterday.
Don't know why. Have not really accuracy checked this load it was just my best guess for a start. Just shot it at 25 yards to check sight alignment before bluing the sights.  I had shot this barrel with this load to some extent before, but this is a new lot that I have not tried this lot in the 54...
Often problems can be related to bore size, charge weight, etc etc etc.
Basically shooters need to experiment to see what works best.
If I had any FFG I would try it but all I have is in the horn for the 16 bore.
Some shooters have reported 1.5F Swiss working very well in rifles with PRBs.

Dan

[northmn]

Sometimes humidity can have an effect on fouling, especially on hot dry days.  Pyrodex does not very well in anything and especially in flintlocks (I admit I am slightly biased against the stuff)

DP

[Daryl]

No Ed, I didn't get it backwards.  For me, with the ball/patch combinations I use today, i see no difference in fouling between 3F and 2F. Years ago, with the other makes of powders we were using, ie; Curtis&Harvey, Meteor, ICI - some others too) 3f fouled more than 2F. My wife even preferred 2f in her .36 Seneca, as I did in the .36 H. Sharron barrel I tested at one time along with the various .45's, .50's and .58's - all 2F. 3F fouled more than 2F.   

Today, in the .40, I use 65gr. 3f or 75gr. of 2F.  In the .45, I use 70gr. 3F or 82gr. 2F. These loadings give the same poi and group sizes.  There is no difference in fouling noted when loading. I have noticed that when using 2F, I have to prick the pan due to fouling blocking the hole, while 3f doesn't produce fouling that can blocks the vent.

Using 65gr. 2f in the .40 raises the POI by 1 1/2" at 50 yards and doubles the group size. In the .45, using 70gr. 2F double s the group size and lowers the POI by 1" and doubles group size.  Raising the 2f charge 10gr. duplicates the lighter 3F charges in both rifles.  In the .69, going from 82gr. 3f to 96gr. 2F duplicates the lighter charge for point of impact and speed.

[Kirrmeister]

Daryl, Did you get that turned around???/I found that FF fouled more than FFF, but I am south of the border too!!!! ?...Ed

Kirrmeister, Research the pyrodex, it will not work in your NW trade gun!!!!...Ed

Then Pyrodex is for a ML which is out of topic here!If you know what I mean.
Would never fill that stuff in a sidelock. My sidelocks are only feeded with bp and lead RB

Regards

Kirrmeister

[hanshi]

Interesting comments.  I've only used Dupont, Elephant & Goex so can't comment on the others.  I can't say any one fouled more than the other though, of course, the Elephant & (especially) Dupont were times way past.  My perception has been that 3f burns cleaner.  At least this has been my experience.  Economy is important so I buy the best price I can get at the time which has been Goex.  I'm totally satisfied though my requirements may be more modest than some others.   I'd suspect these differing results are in part caused by weather, locale and loading protocol.

[Dan]

My experience:  Goex 3F is cheaper(~1/2) and fouls noticeably more than Swiss 1-1/2.  Goex does not have the energy found in Swiss and requires a somewhat bigger charge (~maybe 10%) for the same velocity.  Just observations....I obviously use both, just different applications.  Flinter and cap lock in the order above. 

[Leatherbelly]

  If I remember what Dutch Bill once posted,correct me if wrong,but european black powder  is made using hardwood. Goex is made from pine charcoal.
Maybe that's why Swiss burns cleaner.

[Daryl]

I thought willow charcoal made the best black powder - didn't Ned Roberts address that in his big book for #6 C&H powder?

[Mad Monk]

If he did say willow he was dead wrong.

In the C&H sporting grade powders they used glossy buckthorn alder wood.  During the late 19th century it was known by several names.

In 1970 C&H lost their supplier for this glossy buckthorn alder wood that came out of southern France or northern Spain.  Panic time in Ardeer as result.  They then had to use one or two commercial chars that they had been using in the less critical types of powder.  Old papers from ICI show Skanska and/or Degusa charcoal but no mention of what trees they were from.

If you look at the ballistic data in the 1974 copyright Lyman Black Powder Handbook you see this C&H powder made with the commercial charcoal.  Weak and dirty burning.  Dixie Gunworks sold it.

Here in the U.S. the type of wood used for charcoal depended on where the plant was located.  Those companies producing sporting grades of black powder in New York up into New England generally used European Black Alder which had been brought over from Europe in the earliest days of settlement.  This European Black Alder likes a cooler climate.  We see it here down into PA above Harrisburg, PA.  Not uncommon along springs or streams in the mountains.  It is not seen here south and east of the mountains.

Du Pont used Willow wood charcoal at their plant outside of Wilmington, DE because white Willow is fairly common in the area and easy to grow for powder work.  They would bollard trim the trees to promote growth of what they called "rods".

Then down South they used other suitable woods.

E. Ogre

[Daryl]

Interesting- maybe Ned said Alder.

Here in BC, there is a lot of alder - Black Alder I think - don't know anything about Blackthorn Alder.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

I used a Chinese bp last weekend about the same amount of fouling as goex. When chronographed it shoots about 20ft per second slower, but it does cost 50% less than Goex.  I believe the namebrand was Lindu.   

                                      Rich

[Daryl]

20fps average is nothing.  For now, I'll stay with GOEX.

[Mad Monk]

Interesting- maybe Ned said Alder.

Here in BC, there is a lot of alder - Black Alder I think - don't know anything about Blackthorn Alder.

Daryl,

The Glossy Buckthorn Alder ( Rhamnus frangula) was introduced into the New England states some years back.  Pushed as an ornamental tree.  Around the Great Lakes region it is now classed as an invasive import and some areas are trying to eradicate it. 

E. Ogre

[Daryl]

Yes - alder will take over, mostly in wetter climates or areas here.  Lots along the coast, but some here as well. Dry, it makes a good smoke for Salmon and Char & brookes.

[Harnic]

Red Alder(Alnus rubra for Monk) which is the most common tree at the coast in southern BC, makes great charcoal for the manufacture of black powder.  It burns cleaner than Willow by a mile.  As Daryl pointed out it's fantastic for smoking fish & game too.  It's very good for the fireplace too as it does not spark much.

[Daryl]

tks Harry-  ;Ddidn't know it was Red Alder - dang stuff gets pretty blackin some locals - but I suppose that info is somewhere on the web - I could have looked it up I guess- I must be too busy for some things . Nice to have people who will set me straight on stuff like that .

[Leatherbelly]

Red Alder, thx Harry
The Indians showed me a trick with green red alder.Split it into 2 or 3 inch wide sticks.Start a fire with dry cedar and toss on the green alder.Danged if the stuff didn't burn! A little smokie at first,but it did burn good and hot. Quite surprising to say the least.