Loading smoothbore flintlocks from the pouch

[Firelock]

I just finished writing an article for “Muzzleloader” magazine on setting up a hunting bag for smoothbore shooting. It will probably run in the magazine next year.

I also put together a video on loading smoothbores from the bag.

I welcome your thoughts on the subject.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Enjoyed the video -- thanks .

[T*O*F]

I welcome your thoughts on the subject.

Mike,
I've known you for a long time and you're still a pilgrim.
Obviously you've never participated in a real situational woodswalk where everything is timed, and there are multiple targets.
What are Evil Roy's minions doing while you're futzing with your gun?

[Daryl]

Mike - koodoos for making the video, however - rod in and out of the pipes 3 times every time you load is 2 times too many imho.

All of our ml shooting, except for the static trap contests or when testing loads at a bench, are loading from the pouch.  We're so used to doing it this way, when testing or shooting at the bench, we still mostly load from the pouch, powder horn, etc.  We may have a shooting box with extra supplies, 3F, 2F, 1 1/2F, various patch thicknesses, lubes, that sort of thing, but still wear a bag and horn.

[Firelock]

TOF

On woods walks I usually use a rifle and a loading block of patched RBs to speed up the process.

[Daryl]

Our woods walks are 25 to 30 shots per day.  When we shoot the trail "On Any Sunday", we may fire from 40 to 80 shots - that's lots of loading blocks.

[Frank]

Paper cartridges. KISS, Keep it simple stupid   

[Hungry Horse]

I agree with others that there are  to many trips in and out of the barrel with the ramrod. In spite of the language barrier I think you are referring to what we out here at the end of the West call survival walk. I use a 20 gauge smoothbore, and like you don't patch the ball. But, I don't put anything between the 90 grains of powder and the .595 distressed ball, so all I have to ram down the bore it the greased blanket wad that keeps the ball in place. My target rifle has a small touch hole, but not my smoothbore, the touch hole in it is 1/16th and although I have a pick in my kit, I vertically never use it, and it rarely misfires. Round balls are carried in a rigid rawhide bag with a stitched neck, and an antler powder measure for a stopper. Powder is 2F held in a traditional horn, which is also used for priming. Shot is held in a shot snake, with an Irish style brass head.
 Everything you can leave in camp make you faster when reloading.

  Hungry Horse

[nosrettap1958]

I think Mike gears his videos to the newer shooters and not to guys who have been shooting 'woods walks' and hunting for decades.  Great video for that audience that needs to know that there is a big difference between loading one of these from a bench and loading from a possibles bag while competing and/or hunting. A lot of the newer shooters do not realize that.

[Hungry Horse]

Now I'm confused. So we should teach newbies to do it all the hard way until they get enough time in the sport to qualify for all the right information? Why not cut out the middle man and teach them the right way first.

  Hungry Horse

[Heavies]

I think the video is great information.  There are tons of ways to load shot or ball in a smoothbore.  Being a newb at all this every small piece and step in the process is necessary and helpful information for a new shooter, who may or may not know anything about anything in shooting a ML flint.  Once one gets out to the range and shoots a few rounds, most will figure out what needs to go where, why it should, and how is the best way to do it. 

I can attest that watching Mike's videos, along with some others vids, got me excited and interested in blackpowder shooting, especially in an area with very little support for this sport. Which also led me here.  This forum, for the short time I've been here, is also a super valuable resource in learning what needs to be learned about ML blackpowder traditional firearms!

[nosrettap1958]

HH, do you really consider that the video was completely off base for a new shooter to see the difference between loading from a bench and loading from a hunting pouch? I do agree he used his ramrod a few to many times.

[nosrettap1958]

I think the video is great information.  There are tons of ways to load shot or ball in a smoothbore.  Being a newb at all this every small piece and step in the process is necessary and helpful information for a new shooter, who may or may not know anything about anything in shooting a ML flint.  Once one gets out to the range and shoots a few rounds, most will figure out what needs to go where, why it should, and how is the best way to do it. 

I can attest that watching Mike's videos, along with some others vids, got me excited and interested in blackpowder shooting, especially in an area with very little support for this sport. Which also led me here.  This forum, for the short time I've been here, is also a super valuable resource in learning what needs to be learned about ML blackpowder traditional firearms!

I agree, get out all the information then let the new shooter figure out for himself how to cut away or trim the fat so to speak.

[Hungry Horse]

All this video shows is a guy that scraped all the stuff he uses while shooting off the bench, into a big oversized shooting bag. My rig for shooting from the bag, whether hunting, or doing some kind of survival run event, is nothing like what I use shooting off a bench. In fact, for most of my bench shooting I use a shooting box. The shooting bag, the bullet bag, and whatever you choose to carry shot in, should be on the small side, and not so soft sided that they are hard to get things out of without setting the gun down. A large part of the problem isn't with the pilgrim with the oversized stuff, it with the event planners that plan a scenario that requires an unrealistic amount of shots.
 I just hate to see new people getting in to this sport buying all the wrong stuff, so a few years down the road they can get rid of it, and buy all the right stuff. That was bad enough forty years ago when things were a little cheaper, now I quite frankly don't know how they can do it.

 Hungry Horse

  Hungry Horse

[Steve-ALA]

This gentleman took the time to put together a video for those that are interested.  It's up to the viewer to use the info in it how he or she sees fit.  If all you can do is blast him for doing so, then get busy making a video of your own or don't respond at all.  BTW, I really enjoy this site.

[Dave Marsh]

As usual Mike I enjoyed your video.   Thanks for posting it and I hate to say it but I guess I am guilty of too many ramrod trips down the barrel.  I generally would do 2.     I also agree with Steve-ALA.

Dave

[B Staley]

X2 on Steve's post

[Hungry Horse]

My point is the beginners don't know there are better ways of doing things, so when someone comes off as an expert, they tend to follow their advice. Hey, I'm one of those guys that has a Samsonite size shooting bag with a strap about a foot too long, with matching powder horns (also on a spring too long), along with a pair of school bus yellow buckskin britches,  in my closet. I paid a lot of money for this stuff back in the day, and wish somebody had showed me a shortcut.
 We whine, and complain, about our muzzleloading clubs having no new members, but we let the newbies buy all the wrong stuff, so they feel like they got the wrong end of a bad joke when they show up at the range. It just feels to like no progress has been made since I got involved half a lifetime ago.

  Hungry Horse

[T*O*F]

My point is the beginners don't know there are better ways of doing things, so when someone comes off as an expert, they tend to follow their advice.

Exactly true!!  The newbies who responded positively know nothing about this subject.  These types of articles are part of the dumbing down of the participants because of their ignorance.  The experts are John Curry, Mark Baker, Randy Hedden, guys who belong to the AMM or the Widowmakers, and others.  Authors aren't always experts.....they're just trying to sell stories to make a living.  What is shown in this video is nothing more than loading from a bench, except the bench is too large to fit in the pouch.

[P.W.Berkuta]

GEE WIZ -- no wonder all you OLD !@#$% get flack from the newbees and most don't want to come back here . I guess you all were born EXPERTS in this field?
I watch and learn from all info -- not everyone does it the same and you have to start somewhere. Crawl - then walk - then run and along the way you do what works for you . I think a LOT of EXPERYS are jealous of others where it comes to instructions (my way or the highway) or that they are so stuck in THEIR ways that they don't want to try something different especially if it is from someone that they don't think can give them ^"useful" information -- it's tough to listen to any information if you are a "know it all" -- if the shoe fits -- you know the rest .

[bob in the woods]

All information ref how different folks do things is good stuff for the beginner and the veteran both. I've picked up a few ideas based on what works for others, but...and it's a big but....you need to figure out what works best for YOU .    I decided that the best way for me was to use my flintlock smoothbore for all of my hunting for one year. All hunting..and in all weather. Let me tell you, that sure changed my habits and notions about what and how to use my gun.  I can reload with shot or ball in less time than it takes to type this, and my bag carries far less than before. Our club had to set time limits on our matches because , otherwise, things just dragged on forever !    Also, after 2 flashes in the pan, or failures to fire, that counts as a shot. The absolute best knowledge comes from use.

[Hungry Horse]

Bob, I agree with you when it comes to hunting with a muzzleloader. You will streamline your gear if you are even a little bit serious about your hunting. After hunting birds, and deer, the step up to dangerous game calls for another big upgrade in your ability to load in a hurry, maybe while your running for your life.

  Hungry Horse

[thecapgunkid]

Thanks Mike, for the post and video.  While you're at it, thanks for the YouTube on the Bucks County TOW kit.

Anyway, inasmuch as I always shoot from the pouch and am a Cordwainer, when I built my new smoothbore this past month I built its  bag for function.  I can't point to any document that shows this kind of bag, but the presence of the rivets, nails and wood suggests  a Navy influence.  The bag is made of stiff and well worn cowhide that served several years on my Cowboy Action Gun Cart.  I did not have to worry about antiquing it because it got all the sun and wear I need to get a character based look to it.  I simply glued and nailed two wooden side panels to the leather on each end, and a third wooden panel to divide the interior into two uneven compartments.



Looking down the throat of the bag, you can just about see the small compartment on the left.  That's where the truncated horn goes that holds my wads.  I can lift it out and put it back with relative speed.

I dunno why, but my gun likes an over powder  wad and patched ball.  Paper shoots in different zip codes with each shot, so I use cloth, but the loading block rounds work  in tighter groups.  So I built two side pouches with center butt seams to hold the loading blocks and fastened them to the wooden sides.  The cartridge block holds my paper cartridges in the bag, because carrying and working a powder horn on the trail is a little time consuming and cumbersome.  The tools, flints, extra loads and other stuff fit in the bag under the cartridge block.  The block was cut to hold eight rounds because this bad boy likes to be swabbed around 8 shots.  18-20 usually make up a trail walk.

After pouring powder, the wad and round go down in one shot with the ramrod. 




The only amenity from the twentieth century I have kept for forty years and am willing to get in a fist fight with critics over is the fake ivory priming horn that I scrimshawed.  I keep that, the brush and pick, and the patch knife in the strap itself.   Although you can't see it, the shoulder straps coming out of the back of the bag are held with a button and loop over the D rings in the strap.  That way, when I change guns, I can take a different bag every time and use the same strap.  I can put a leather circlet in place of the D rings if I want, but so far I don't want.

I've found over the years of trekking that the cartouche bag of stiff leather seems to work better with a smoothbore, but would add that my model is based more on the Rangers than the long hunters.

Don't shoot yore eye out, kid
The Capgun KId

[T*O*F]

Before you climb on your high horse about old timers, consider some things.  It's a good video, but he erred in his presentation.
He said, " If you compete in Woodswalks or Treks," and then posed a scenario:
It's Pennsylvania in 1755.  Evil Roy and his Shawnee raiders are attacking.  You have to take out the raiders and save your homestead.
That's where things go south and what we object to.  In no way is his loading procedure and the things in his bag appropriate for this scenario.  That is what we are objecting to.  He's one dead homesteader.

The key word here is "compete."  Many of you don't even know what a situational woodswalk is.  But anyone wanting to get into competing in them would be ill served by following his procedures.  There are hundreds, if not thousands of people who do complete in them and they are NOT old timers nor experts.  But they have taken the time to learn what it takes to compete in them.

He should have just left that part out and said our club has a trail walk consisting of metal targets and this is how I load when shooting it.

If anyone really wants to learn about timed events like the Seneca Run, situational Woodswalks, or even timed trail walks, they only need ask and we will be happy to oblige, but not many of those guys hang out here.  We can start a separate thread in the shooting forum.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I would find that interesting Dave.