Author Topic: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!  (Read 7970 times)

Offline thecapgunkid

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Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« on: March 01, 2017, 08:53:26 PM »
I could see as soon as I opened the box what a trap for the newby re-enactor these Indian Muskets  are.  Six Hundred Dollars or so for the piece is almost irresistible to someone starting out.    When I’d heard some re-enactment groups  won’t allow them on the field,  I just nodded because I knew why.   The low price matched the quality of the gun.  It was supposed to be a First Model…”Ranger” or "carbine"…Brown Bess. 

The website pictures look as good as the gun does in the movies

Ever since Earl Stott of Rogers Island and Burt Loescher of “The History Of Rogers Rangers” ( a Ranger bible, by the way)  birthed the idea of cut down Bess’s, vendor   shortened muskets jumped all over the market.  Back in the eighties, my own Ranger Company ( Rogers Rangers, Boat 17) had several of them in our ranks, but those were all Japanese or Italian.  Like those guns, this was a little short of the First Model.  It had the most of the hardware but the stock was a little lean in the toe and the ramrod channel was, at best, drilled and left to a metal rod.  I had been to Rogers Island and held samples of cut muzzles, and don’t care to participate in the discussions over whether or how muzzles were cut. That’s down there with whether or not Rogers jumped off the Rock.

The websites touted all the movies these guns were in.   I wonder if the chrome like shine on the metal was because of this.  I could not wait to get rid of it.  There’s a very wide selection of guns on these websites.    They truly look handsome and the Vendors have a good outlet in the movies.  Maybe in re-enactments if the safety officers do their jobs and the buyer is willing to ship a bad one back.   The rest of us, however, are not in movies.

The original idea of making this gun better and teaching myself some techniques on the fly while doing it survived the forum remarks and opinions of in-the-know folks I spoke to.     About a third of those folks condemned and spat upon the gun as a product, a third told stories of dropping a deer or a boar,  getting the piece to group  and other stories of normalcy.   Eighty percent probably thought I was nuts.
By now I was making less mistakes in my work, wood was fitting better to metal, my tool rack was full of the right tools and this gun would serve as a platform to attempt things I had not yet attempted.  I have a penchant for cobbling and re-purposing stuff, and going Kamikaze on this product would be worth the time and effort.  For one thing, I wanted to learn to solder stuff.   For another, I wanted to play with different finishes to get an antiqued look.  Tuning a lock could not have a better candidate to work with.  Then there was drilling out a ramrod hole…

Greg and Brenda Dixon have three qualities about them that I find significant enough to add to the desire to  go there at least once a month.  For one thing, if they think I’m nuts they hide it well.  For another their advice and product selection is admirable, and for yet another they never say no when I want to buy something.   When I told Greg what I was up to I knew I’d get good support and hoped they got a good laugh at the dinner table.  Didn’t say a word to Chuck about this, though.  I wondered if he’d try to burn me as a witch if somebody let on.
The first thing to go was the barrel.  It was the worst part of the gun and surely the cause of every concern.   The lugs were welded on  in a way that just looked fishy and for some unknown reason it was too small.   Camera ready, but not even a hint of the bulk of the First Model Kings Arm.  I drilled the touch hole and ran a patch down the barrel, only to have the feel loosen drastically about a foot from the breech so that the patch slipped off.   I wondered whose life I saved by buying this gun and running this exercise.  Lord, I love Track Of  The Wolf.  I had a new barrel fitted with plug about a week after I ordered it, and seeing the proof marks was downright reassuring.  A little Larry Potterfield on YouTube and I actually soldered a front sight and the lugs.  It only took about an hour and I did not even use any Marine Corps Mouth in the process.  With minimal work on the barrel channel all the way down the stock, You can take it to the bank that the Statue of St. Joseph in my shop helped.



The second thing to need attention was the lock.  I had to learn how to tune and then go ahead and tune extensively.   The biggest criticism being that the steel did not cover the pan by the touch hole, and I had to grind and file the bolster about a 32nd of an inch to  make a better mortise fit that was flush on the barrel.  I took some pressure off the sear spring and now it cocks smoothly.   I lightened the springs and filed some of the steel tit so as to get more  shots out of a flint.  The original lock took the flint all the way down after ten pulls.  Now it gets about thirty.  The modifications I made still produced a shower of sparks and kept the flint going.



The stock was somewhere in between Walnut and Cedar.  When I fit the barrel and drilled the ramrod hole  I had to be careful.   The Ramrod.  I suppose you could call it that.  I guess it was put on there without switching out the thimbles used for metal rods or drilling the stock, because it was ridiculously tapered at the base and rounded at the blank tip. It broke like it was made of Balsa, so it fit neatly into the garbage bag.



 I had to wait for a ramrod drill bit to make its way via back order.  When the bit came in  after three weeks of waiting  I had the hole reamed out in five minutes.   Little bit in, little bit out.  Little bit in, little bit out. Tie the bit to the channel with a lace and put a little English on the bit so as to keep it from coming out the stock.  I don’t even know whose video I saw on YouTube for that tutelage.  I fitted some brass to rough out the trumpet shaped end of the wooden rods I’d seen in Redcoats And Brown Besses.

I can understand how the workers over in India may have been so pressured to crank these out the door as to be almost criminal in plopping on some filler and not even sanding it, or leaving paper sized gaps in wood to metal.  If it has a redeeming quality at all it is the ability to suck up stain after I stripped it and made it look as dark as all the originals I have ever seen.  The originals were likely darkened with age, this one I darkened with water based leather dye because it soaked in and raised the grain so that modest whiskering produced an aged look that won’t make it through the photos.  Unfortunately you can’t see the combination of True Oil and Danish/Linseed that gives it that greasy piled on look that originals have.



Every step of the way I was watching videos.   So, now I knew how to solder without burning the shop down, drill new pin and lock bolt  holes without having the exit hole on the far side of the stock come out in a different  zip code,  tune a lock  and drill a ramrod hole.  Then, as if it were guided by St. Joseph’s hand, I learned how to brown the metal parts.  I had to buff the brass because it was poorly polished, and I did that entirely by hand.  Hated it, but I did it anyway. 

With the first three Bess’ I owned years ago, I had to carve out a cheekpiece because the Kings Arm was meant to be fired from the hip while in ranks.  I did not even wait for this one, and now I can get an eye to sight down the barrel with only marginal discomfort.
 


If I ever Trek again, I won’t carry one because they are so darned heavy.  We are pretty sure the average height in the 1700’s was between five foot four and five foot seven, and the fact that these guys carried these things in the woods routinely convinces me that I would not want to get into a fight with any of them.

Once I got the absurd shine off the metal parts in the lock, browning that and the barrel was so easy.  I am convinced that is due to cold brown product quality rather than my skills.   Here’s what I ended up with just before I shot the pie plate at twenty five yards.

I already acknowledged that I was a hobbyist and would never ascend to the level of the professional rifle makers.  I base this on  the experience of my prior training with shoemaking.  Many living history shoemakers out there know how to go through the motions, but my master taught me all the intricacies of the knowledge base behind making the shoe…everything from how a badly made shoe can make your hair hurt all the way through the math of the foot and pattern.  That   same idea in gunmaking is the difference between me and the real Pro’s.  You guys don’t doubt  that the Dixonses, Brookses, Houseses, Gusslerses,Kiblerses,  Chamberses and Turpinses and so on  know a lot we don’t…right?

Here’s what I learned working on this pig before I got it to fly;
1.   Unless you are going to at least improve  and at most consult an expert on how to upgrade, don’t buy one.  In fact, tinkering can make it worse.   In their out-of-box state they are unreliable and we can’t do enough to warn the novice about them
2.   Yeah, I got to pick up a lot of techniques on this expendable platform, but at least half of that was putting videos of experts to the wood and metal.   Don’t dink around with these without carefully prepping each operation.
3.   If I wasn’t retired with a lot of time on my hands and with few financial worries, I dunno whether it would ever have crossed my mind to play around like this.
4.   The cost of this was only about $160.00 less versus buying , say, a Track Of The Wolf or some other  quality kit or parts set.  HOWEVER, there are a lot of mistakes I am not going to make when I tackle my next Chambers Kit or gun that started out as a stock blank.  I can’t price that.
5.   The Vendors are outside our borders, so there is no real regulation on them and asking the Government to help is….well…asking the Government to help.  I just wish these guys would take the time to caution shooters about their use and context.
6.   I still don’t like shooting a Brown Bess.

Don't shoot yore eye out, kid
(or blow your head off with one of these out-of-box)
The Capgun Kid

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2017, 10:59:42 PM »
Is it me or does the barrel look like it's slightly bent downwards?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2017, 11:11:57 PM »
Cap gun you sure can type. Use it for squib loads only. Could do a re-stock I suppose for practice.
Andover, Vermont

Offline conquerordie

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2017, 12:27:07 AM »
I tell ya the same thing I told you in your post about starting this project.....good on ya! You took on this project to learn, and by your post you did a lot of that. Mission accomplished. It's not the highest quality piece ever made, but you improved and expanded your knowledge while doing it. We all learn in different ways, this is the path you choose, and it seems to have worked for you. Now on to the next,
Greg

Offline Frank

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2017, 12:49:06 AM »
Re-enactment use only. I sure wouldn't put a lead ball down the barrel and pull the trigger.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2017, 01:30:37 AM »
He's got a TOTW barrel on it now. I assume it is the Colerain 1st model Bess barrel they sell.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2017, 04:54:16 AM »
Yep, should have read the whole thing. Good move getting a new barrel.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2017, 06:03:55 AM »
Why the brown barrel?
Psalms 144

Offline Daryl

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2017, 07:45:24 AM »

Because they look better!!!!!!!!!!- obviously!
 ;D
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline TMerkley

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2017, 12:21:01 AM »
Now time to experiment with the old barrel... How much before she blows... Educational destruction. If you want to. It's your barrel.  Might be interesting to have it for information regarding the other thread about What grade of steel for a barrel.  This could be used as a guinea pig.

Offline thecapgunkid

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2017, 04:50:20 PM »
TMerkley...Now time to experiment with the old barrel... How much before she blows.

Good point, and I have thought about it several times. I was going to load it up on 2x8 and triple charge it.  Any advice on how to do that?

Capgun

Steve-In

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2017, 05:47:45 AM »
I would just go with a few standard loads first.
C-clamp it to the 2x4 and build up an area next to the touch hole.  Put primer on it and ignite with fuse.
I would like to see pics of the breechplug and breech threads before you do your experiments.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2017, 08:35:35 PM »
Wow, sounds like you turned a pigs rear into a pigs ear. I guess I just don't get the point of this entire project. I totally understand doing a lot of rework on a reasonable quality, cheap, factory manufactured gun, that isn't quite up to snuff, but these guns are scary as all get out.
 I do applaud your decision to replace the barrel, but can't really justify the cost, considering the poor quality of the rest of the gun.

 Hungry Horse

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2017, 08:43:22 PM »
Perhaps with a blond wig,some lipstick and a gallon of cheap perfume and it doesn't go oink oink nobody will notice ;D

Offline Daryl

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2017, 10:15:38 PM »
CGKid  have you wet the stock with water yet.?  The one I had got all gummy with a bit of rain water on it, and the red-finish started coming off. Might be a different Indian maker, maybe not.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline thecapgunkid

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2017, 02:49:04 AM »
Daryl...
CGKid  have you wet the stock with water yet.?  The one I had got all gummy with a bit of rain water on it, and the red-finish started coming off. Might be a different Indian maker, maybe not.


Forgot to mention stripping and refinishing the stock, did I?

Offline yulzari

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2017, 04:30:22 PM »
"I had to carve out a cheekpiece because the Kings Arm was meant to be fired from the hip while in ranks."

Where did you get that from? Always from the shoulder and aimed to boot.

Hmm. Amazing. Half the price of a Pedersoli and half as good. Who would have thought it? The barrel should be safe as it is made of far better material than the originals and by a better method even if they are of very high pressure hydraulic pipes. They pass the proof tests in Britain, Germany, France, Italy and Spain. A bit variable in the bore size consistency admittedly but that is no problem for an authentic 0,685" ball with 8 grams of coarse powder plus a little for the pan, in a proper paper cartridge. Even a Lovells 0,733 reduced bore was good for 25 rounds worth of fouling.
Nothing suceeds like a beakless budgie

Offline Daryl

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2017, 10:21:47 PM »
Daryl...
CGKid  have you wet the stock with water yet.?  The one I had got all gummy with a bit of rain water on it, and the red-finish started coming off. Might be a different Indian maker, maybe not.


Forgot to mention stripping and refinishing the stock, did I?

OK- saw that, the second time through. Cheers
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Daryl

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2017, 10:24:33 PM »
"I had to carve out a cheekpiece because the Kings Arm was meant to be fired from the hip while in ranks."

Where did you get that from? Always from the shoulder and aimed to boot.

Hmm. Amazing. Half the price of a Pedersoli and half as good. Who would have thought it? The barrel should be safe as it is made of far better material than the originals and by a better method even if they are of very high pressure hydraulic pipes. They pass the proof tests in Britain, Germany, France, Italy and Spain. A bit variable in the bore size consistency admittedly but that is no problem for an authentic 0,685" ball with 8 grams of coarse powder plus a little for the pan, in a proper paper cartridge. Even a Lovells 0,733 reduced bore was good for 25 rounds worth of fouling.

These hydraulic pipes passed proof in those countries?  The proof stamps on the Indian-made guns mean nothing as far as I can see - these guns were never proofed as there is no vent as received.  They ship out of India as non-firearms as they do not have vents.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 10:25:33 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline yulzari

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2017, 12:17:46 AM »




These hydraulic pipes passed proof in those countries?  The proof stamps on the Indian-made guns mean nothing as far as I can see - these guns were never proofed as there is no vent as received.  They ship out of India as non-firearms as they do not have vents.
Hi Daryl. I don't want to go down the 'are Indian muskets safe?' road but one should be aware that India has very draconian gun laws. If these guns were proofed in India (which has similar proofing standards to the UK I believe) then they would be classed as firearms and export would be banned. By making them fit for proof and exporting them without a drilled touch hole then they get around that piece of law. The steel of these pipes is of a sound type for the wall thicknesses and much better than the iffy wrought iron forge welded on a mandrel that the originals have. In Europe they have to pass proof before being sold and this has not been a problem even in the German or British proof houses that have the most stringent requirements, The German one requires the barrel to survive the proof load 5 times I understand. If Indian law let the makers proof them before export then they would gladly do so and sell them with a drilled touch hole and bearing a proper Indian government proof stamp as accepted around the world. In India they are sold thus as their law requires. BTW I happily fire my 1843 Birmingham made London proofed musket with the full service charge. Iffy wrought iron hammer forge welding and all.

Be that all as it may I do not presume to advise if one should buy a cheap Indian musket and, well, get a cheap musket or pay twice the price and get a superior quality. That is for the individual to choose as a responsible adult. You pays your money and you takes your choice. I drive a 2008 Renault. My neighbour drives a 2016 Ford. They both work fine.
Nothing suceeds like a beakless budgie

Offline conquerordie

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2017, 12:38:50 AM »
Yulzari,
Just so I understand, these Indian barrels once sent to Europe are proof tested by the country they are shipped to? Or are proofed in India for say England or Germany? And for shipping to America, they are not proofed as they are not vented? I would like to see the capgunkid test this barrel. I hear all the naysayers about this material, but have also heard of completely happy shooters with the same material. In not in the market for one of these, just curious.
Greg

Offline yulzari

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2017, 02:03:35 AM »
Greg. The guns are sent to Europe just the same as to the USA. Unproofed without a touch hole. Before they can be sold as working guns or used as guns they have to be proofed by their appropriate national proof house. If they were proofed in India then Indian export law would prevent them being exported as exporting firearms is banned. I have never heard of one failing but of course it is possible.
Nothing suceeds like a beakless budgie

Offline conquerordie

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2017, 02:34:11 AM »
Thank you for clearing that up for me. If the capgun kid does decide to test his barrel maybe he can use European proof test as his method. Thanks again,
Greg

Offline Daryl

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2017, 02:50:52 AM »
Go ahead and shoot them if you want. This is the one I bought, but returned.
The company said they then sent it to a gunsmith who proofed it to their total satisfaction & that these inexpensive (over $800.00 5 years ago) were of much higher quality than the Pedersioli muskets - all I can say is - enjoy and best wishes.





Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Cobbling The Cheap Musket…The Pig Flies!!
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2017, 03:04:24 AM »
Thanks for reposting this again Daryl, don't think folks understand these people from where ever don't give a $#@* about their own let alone the junk they export.You want to roll the dice to save a couple hundred,hope your not shooting that thing near anybody else.Just plain stupid to take that chance.What they should do is ban the import of junk like that!