16 gauge smoothbore shotgun loads for best chance at a decent 25 yrd turkey load

[sonny]

I realize that you can have super duper  small game or turkey bore shotgun smoothbore barrels made, but the average settler would not have such magical products in his arms. What load for a 16 gauge or 12 gauge Bess smoothie would provide a decent chance for roasted dinner critters?.........sonny

[rich pierce]

Round ball!

[Longknife]

Ya gotta do a LOT of load work up for each different gun,,, I slice my over powder wads in half and lube them with beeswax/Crisco. That keeps them from blowing a hole in pattern. Use thinnest card you can find on top of shot. I would start with 75 or 80 grains of FF powder and use  same measure for #4 shot......If pattern has holes increase SHOT charge 5 grains till pattern closes up. THEN shoot at desired range at a TIN can, (not aluminum) if it penetrates can it will penetrate ole rubber-neck...My .02

[Longknife]

Round ball!

Abour two ounces of tiny round balls!!!!

[Daryl]

I might try some load development with paper shot wrap made from post-it notes.   Split and not split.

Some have improved patterns in non-choked guns by simply using a couple or 3 thin overshot wads between powder and shot, along with one over- and/or with paper shot wrap.

Some form of shot protection device was used by the English back in the 1800's to improve patterns for longer range shooting.  So successful they were, as to having different colours to designate expected ranges, right out to 90 or 100yards shooting water fowl- with non-choked guns.

That particular wad of shot was suggested for shooting wolves and deer out to 50yards as at that range, the shot was completely enclosed still, and penetrated as a slug or round ball would.

Some guys have experimented with bank supplied coin wrappers of appropriate size.  Some guys have noted that at 25 yards, these pass through a paper target as a slug - makes be wonder if they patterned them at 50, 60 or 70 yards. 

There appears to be more work needed, on the pattern board.

Butcher brown paper makes for a good patterning paper. As well, check with the Forestry offices for 'old maps'. That is what I have not- 4'  square pieces of white paper (back side).

I would be inclined to try to attempt to get a load of around 1 1/4oz. shot running good patterns - probably in the 65gr. to 75gr. 3F range.  Also- experiment with 2f and 3F loads.

[sonny]

Daryl, I tried coin wrappers an the shot never ruptured the peanut bag when the gun fired..........wow, ready for cape buffalo. I would think 100 grs  or more with  more then 2 oz shot (heck they use 2 oz  of shot in 20 gauge).My 16 gauge shoots paper patched round balls just like you taught me to build............@!*% if it didn't work!!!!!.........I would think my ole bess would need  way more then 100 grains with more pellets then the 20 or the 16 gauge 2 0z.shot load.........all things being proportionate. I know you want me to be safe because you are steering my trials, but I would think bigger caliber smoothbore would use a bit more of everything to keep it abount the same for results...........sonny

[Longknife]

Sonny, you are right,, a 16 will take a different load than an 11. You are gonna have to work up a load for each gun...  Start with a "square" load, use the same measure for powder and shot. In your 16 or.66 cal barrel that would be about 66 grains and be considered a "light" load. A turkey load need more of everything... as per Daryls' quote:

   "I would be inclined to try to attempt to get a load of around 1 1/4oz. shot running good patterns - probably in the 65gr. to 75gr. 3F range.  Also- experiment with 2f and 3F loads.

In you Bess a light load would start with a 75 grain measure, and work up from there.

P.S. there are no "magic numbers" that we can tell you...............

[Daryl]

Years ago, I borrowed a friend's 11 bore H Whall smoothbore, ball and shot gun.  The reason I call it a ball and shot gun, is due to the huge breech - 1 3/8" across the flats.  It is a hooked patent breech English percussion gun of about the 1850 to 70 period (a guess), replete with platinum blow out plug. This gun has an octagonal-to-round barrel of 36".  9 pounds and swings slowly, but steadily.  I also placed 2nd in a smoothbore ball event with it, shooting .022" patches and .715" balls, with 3 1/2 drams (96gr.) of 2F.






In this gun, I used 3 thin "B" wads over the 82gr. (3 drams) powder charge, along with 1 1/4oz shot (90gr. powder measure =3 1/4 drams), with 1 thin "B" wad over the shot.  It worded very well on clay birds.
I think a lot of people are overloading their 20 bore smoothbores, trying to turn them into modern shotguns.

[Hungry Horse]

 I have found that in unchoked smoothbores ( the only ones that really exist, because choking hasn't been invented yet) the finer the powder used, the more likelihood there is of blowing a hole in your pattern. Paper encased shot is fine if you don't live out West  where things turn brown, and tinder dry, by the middle of June. I like paper wasp nest, or hornets nest, over the powder, and an overshot wad cut from the fine grained sheet cork used to line tool chests (it pretty much disintegrates when it exits the barrel). If I am hunting quail, or pheasant, I sometimes put a little dab of bore butter, or bear grease, on the rear of the hornets nest to soften the foulings. I use 2F in my 20 ga., but have used 1F and even 3FA blasting powder, with good success. With the 3FA blasting powder ( I found some I had squirreled away from when I owned a cannon) I had to up the charge by two thirds.

 Hungry Horse

[Osprey]

I spent a lot of days trying to get my 16 cylinder bore to kill turkeys at 25-30 yards, best load I came up with was 90 gr FF, felt cushion wad, 2oz #4 and an overshot card slightly ripped.  Yet it never patterned consistently tight enough at that range and I learned it's limitations were 20 yards and closer for clean turkey kills - admitting that put more birds in the bag.  Patience and hunting skill trumps loads it seems.

Still, next one I build will have the full choke, too many field edges where I hunt and the extra distance matters there.

[Dphariss]

Anyone try paper shot cups? Rolled like paper cartridges from 20 pound paper and experiment with how many wraps to use and how to cut the top when loaded to make the best pattern. The British used to use a wire cage full of shot and to let the shot filter out as the cage moved along and make a much tighter pattern.
Kinda something of a forerunner to the modern plastic "power piston".
If properly wadded there should be not fire danger.
Dan

[Daryl]

This is from W.W.Greener's book, The Gun and it's Development - 9th edition, printed in 1911, I think.  His father, W.Greener wrote the first edition in 1858.




A story of the effectiveness of these is given in 'Firearms of the American West", 1803 - 1865.

A shooting contest between a 12 bore SXS with 48" tubes, against what the 12 bore owner called a "little Pistol", 14 bore SXS having shorter tubes, length not known.

The 12 bore was loaded with wads and heavy shot charge as the man with it, was a fowling hunter of renown about St. Louis.
The 14 bore was loaded with fine powder and one of Ely's (or Westley Richards) little paper covered wired shot containers which included the wads.

Both guns were cylinder bore - no chokes, but the 12 was known for producing good patterns. The winner took the other man's shotgun as prize.

The target was a piece of paper 4" x 7" at a range of 75 yards. (or maybe 70yards- my memory is fuzzy as to the exact distance) 

The 12 bore fired and produced 4 holes & 'old tom' was happy with that, saying: "Lets see what your little pistol can do".

The "little pistol" produced 28 holes, using the 'ctg. that did not open before 50 or 60 yards. It's English owner thanked the St. Louis man for the contest, but would not take his gun as prize, saying the man (Tom, I sure) "need it to feed your family".

There were several different types of these devices, the wire basket being the one Ely & Westley Richardes made. Different coloured paper designated the range of each.  The red (or maybe it was green) paper was designated for deer or wolves to 50yards as it struck at that range as a ball would.  This longest range 'shot-wad' , black, I think, was supposed to be good for waterfowl to 100yards.

[JBJ]

Guys,
The following site discusses load development, various shot containers, candle cartridges, etc. You will likely find something of interest.
J.B.

http://www.muzzleloadingshotguns.com/articles

[Daryl]

Found this interesting - concerning the Ely ctgs.  Of note are the shot charges used in each gauge - scroll down.

http://www.muzzleloadingshotguns.com/articles/eleypatentwirecartridges

[Mike Brooks]

Found this interesting - concerning the Ely ctgs.  Of note are the shot charges used in each gauge - scroll down.

http://www.muzzleloadingshotguns.com/articles/eleypatentwirecartridges

Charges seem about right to me.

[Joe S]

Mike

Who do you recommend for doing jug chokes?

Joe

[Mike Brooks]

Mike

Who do you recommend for doing jug chokes?

Joe

Lowell Tennyson, Bluegrass IA.

[Joe S]

Gracias, Mike.  I have 16 bore I'm intending for turkey, and I think a little choke is appropriate for this gun. 

[Mike Brooks]

Gracias, Mike.  I have 16 bore I'm intending for turkey, and I think a little choke is appropriate for this gun.

I'd go full.

[Joe S]

That's good advice, and I'm considering doing just that.  I'm also considering modified.  With a modified barrel, it would be good for wing shooting.  I want to do some experiments with buffering.  I'm thinking maybe with buffering loads for turkey,  I can effectively have both chokes.  As I’m sure you’re aware, the English were buffering with bone dust in the 1700’s.

I’ve learned recently that the Spanish in particular were doing a lot of dimensional changes in the bores.  Their barrels were not simple cylinder bore.  Do you have any experience with any of those original bores?  I’d be very curious to know what they were able to achieve before modern choking.

[Daryl]

One system of choking, was to have the bore tapered tighter in the middle, that is, tapered larger towards both the breech and the muzzle. This was 'said' to make the gun shoot 'stronger'.

[Joe S]

It would be very interesting to pattern one of those guns and see what they achieved.

[Daryl]

I can't imagine the choke in the middle would benefit very much, however, maybe it slowed the wads enough to prevent them from blowing through the pattern.  I just can't see it working as well as a well loaded straight smoothbore. 

That this 'style' didn't become popular (it seems due to a lack of writings) and none were used nor recorded in the patterning trials in England, even as far back as the 1860's might show how well they actually worked.

[Joe S]

That's a good point Daryl.  If that method of choking was good enough to compete with later designs, it probably would have persisted longer.

[Daryl]

It was WW Greener who actually perfected chokes.  As early as 1860, an American gun maker named Roper (IIRC), made a short length screw-on choke which was simply an angled restriction - shaped much like the modern "compressed" chokes seen on about all cheap single shot shotguns.(end of the barrel is compressed radially to form the choke)  Why it did not attain the popularity it should have is a mystery - perhaps they put in too much choke - I do not know.