Cart before the horse.

[Woodsrunner79]

I want to build one of Mr. Chambers kits. However I'm sadly lacking in tools, like I've got none. Well that's not true, I've got mechanics tools but 0 woodworking tools.
So my question is, should I buy the kit first and then get the tools I need or should I get a suggested list of tools from Mr. Chambers and get them first?

[Elnathan]

From a time-management and cash-flow standpoint, it makes better sense to buy the most expensive thing and the thing with the longest potential wait first. That is the kit. I would buy any tools that you are going to get from Chambers, like the drill and tap for the touch-hole liner, at the same time, though.  The rest of the tools you can buy as you need them and as funds allow.

[g2608671@verizon.net]

This is just my 2 cents and assuming that your lack of woodworking tools kind of maps to a lack of woodworking skills.  I would get the tools first and practice on woodcarving / chipping and handling techniques before the gun kit arrives. Start with soft woods and work your way into the type of wood that will come with the gun.  I had a Chambers kit years ago and although Jim and Barbie were always available for advise and support I was not up to the task of doing justice to to the beautiful piece of Maple that came with the gun.  I eventually sold it to someone who had the talent required to build the gun and the guy did a great job of correcting my mistakes, turned out a very nice rifle. If you can - take a woodcarving class (just to learn the basics at least) before trying to work on a stock.  Sharp tools + a plan + patience + excellent lighting + skill and resolve are among the requirements.   

[WadePatton]

Get the kit.

and as Polekat says, assuming you don't has great woodworking skills, get into hand-powered woodworking at the same time.  Buy used tools, refurbish them.  Learn to sharpen properly and often.  I strongly suggest the videos by Paul Sellers for fine woodworking skills development.  One can learn to sharpen/set a saw, sharpen planes and chisels, build a full working bench with minimal tools (my first PS project), layout and design and work holding options. 

WORK HOLDING is probably the biggest challenge after getting your parts in house.  Methinks that a pattern-makers vise is one of the best options, and there are threads here showing various gun-holding setups.  Holding pre-carved stocks is usually more challenging that holding planks. Holding the small parts for prep and detail work is another little set of hurdles. 

Don't get in a rush, but keep moving.  Cheers! 

[Eric Krewson]

I would by a few tools first and practice inletting random things on scrap wood, file a few dovetails on scrap metal and rasp and shape some scrap wood as well. If you find you are heavy handed and lack patience you may decide to go another direction than a Chambers Kit, an assembly kit like a Lyman for starters.

I bought a Isaac Hanes kit of an archery classified  that someone bought and realized they didn't have the skill to put it together. The current cost of the kit would be over $1200, I got it for half of that, a costly error for whoever bought it thinking they could put it together.

[SingleMalt]

When it comes to buying tools,you don't need the best, but quality. Peruse flea markets, there's usually one or two vendors selling tools. The steel used 50+ years ago is very good and they can be had for small money usually.

[n stephenson]

You really don`t need a ton of tools to build a gun. I`ve got a ton of tools but, that comes from a fetish for tools not the need. If you get into engraving and such there are some special tools but just to build a gun you really don`t need a lot.    Nathan

[rich pierce]

A lot of hobby builders have enough tools for 3 people.  If you ask around here I bet there are guys who could sell you chisels, gouges, etc that are duplicates or triplicates. On the other hand though I have too many files I know they wear out so not getting rid of those.  New files are a great investment. Everything else among hand tools can be used or even ancient.

[Woodsrunner79]

Lots of great advice.

So given my situation would it be wiser to take that same $1200-1500 and look for a used rifle, instead of run the risk turning a $1200 kit into a $500 gun?

[TMerkley]

Well,
It may not hurt to do that. 
What kind of mechanical skills to you have?  Do you work metal like welding and grinding etc..?  In some aspects the skill set can be close as metal can have a "grain" structure.  The main difference is that metal is more forgiving.  You can always put metal back, you can't always put wood back with out issues.  You can find decent tools for working on guns at antique stores for a decent price.  I use primarily antique tools that I find.  Spindle shaper and draw knife.  Farrier's rasp.  There are times where I will use the Hacksaw as a rasp to lightly remove wood without taking too much.  Then follow up with a "Mill" file and then finish up with what ever.  Wood Chisels, I try to find a cheap set and then what ever small size I don't have, I will  make from a bolt or something like.  Nothing special.  Make do with what you have.  No sense in wasting money. You don't need very many "special tools" That's what I love about Black Powder arms.  If you are able to "think outside the box" to analyze and solve problems, you will not need a lot of money.
 
Hence the reason I started building, I was young and couldn't afford the 600 dollar gun kits and up. 
a lot of good advice from all the members on this site.  You will not be led astray!

[rich pierce]

A Chambers kit can turn into a $600 or $6000 rifle, and everywhere in between. I've seen some amazing rifles from first timers. On the other hand folks don't often post their disasters. Some. Many experienced builders recommend a trade gun for the first build. It's still going to cost some long green.

[Woodsrunner79]

Could anybody post a list of must have tools for the first time builder. Also brands to look for/ stay away from.  I'd rather buy quality once than, junk twice.

[tiswell]

Woodsrunner,
        As mentioned previously, Paul Sellers youtube videos are awesome. They pertain mostly to woodworking tools, sharpening, maintenance as it relates to furniture making, but much is relevant. If you buy new tools beware of the quality, there is a lot of junk on the market today. Cheap stuff may do the job, but you spend as much time sharpening it as using it and that becomes a drag real fast. The flea market suggestion is a real good one. Old American made stuff is usually good to very good in quality. I would first suggest a small set of palm chisels.  I have a Millers Falls #107 5 piece set that has served me well and can be found on ebay for less than $25. A narrow, like 1/8" wide mortising chisel to inlet the barrel tenons will be helpful. Look at the Narex brand for good chisels at a middle of the road price point. You will need several drill bits, buy good ones, please steer clear of Harborfreight, they are cheap, but that is the limit of their virtues. Mcmaster-Carr and MSC are good resources for decent drill bits and cutting tools. You will need a couple taps (8-32 and 10-32). A 3/8" x 82 degree countersink. A tap wench, this is an item that can be bought at Harbor Freight. $9 will buy you a 3 piece set. Most precarves have wood that needs to be rasped off so a good large half round wood rasp is helpful. Nicholson #49 and #50 used to be the answer, but I think the quality may have fallen off. Others may comment on this. You will need some files and finding good ones these days is tough for all of us. Look for Bahco to be a good file for the money. Grobet, Pferd, is top shelf but a little more$.

Tool sharpening is something to touch on. Hard maple is totally different that pine, if it is figured (curly) working with dull tools will cause a lot of chip outs. Tools have to be so sharp that you can be cut by their shadow. Sandpaper of reducing grits down to say at least 2000 grit on a flat surface will suffice for much of it. Good stones are better. Diamond stones are supposed to be the best as they stay pretty flat, unlike natural or man made stones. I use a combination of sandpaper on flats and stones. A leather strop (flat board with leather glued on) charged with green Chromium Oxide compound will strop the shaving sharp edge on your tools.

 If you plan to do some carving on the buttstock the tool list gets longer. A video on assembling a precarve might be a good idea. It goes a little different than building from a plank because the pan location is already defined by the lock inlet. You have to finish inlet the barrel and tang in relation to the pan. Ron Elhert's video is good if you can find one, other may be as good or better.

[Bill Raby]

   I think most important tools are the chisels and files. For chisels I use Pfeil and my files are mostly Friedrich Dick. A bit expensive, but the cheap tools will just drive you nuts. Pretty much need a drill press.

[smallpatch]

First of all..... forget "sets" of chisels.  You'll probably only use one or two of six in a set.  Don't ask how I know!
A set of flat blade screwdrivers is ok. 
Buy only the tools you need.
Good detail knife..... xacto will work fine for now.
Small flat chisels... 1/16", ⅛", ¼" are as large as you need.  Add a small skew chisel to that.
Rasps, files, ½ round will get you a good start.
A drill press is a good idea, a necessity as far as I'm concerned.
An 8-32 tap set.
A safe sided three corner file to fit sights and underlugs.
I love scrapers, but you can get by with sandpaper.
There are many more that you'll find convenient as you progress.
Lastly.... buy the best! Pfeil chisels are expensive, but you'll never regret it, and they are readily available.
You must keep,them sharp, so you'll need some stones, or diamond hones as well.
I hope this helps.

[Mauser06]

For a chambers kit, I don't believe you really need much in the way of tools.  I've never worked with one, but I believe the stock is pretty well shaped. A couple small chisels, a couple files and sand paper aughta be about it. A hack saw may be needed to take casting sprues off castings and cut the stock down to length..Not sure how the stock comes.

From there, a few drill bits, a drill (or drill press), and a tap set should be about it. 


Like was said, look around for old tools.  Sometimes people think because it's old that it must be worth a fortune. Others just want rid of the "junk" and you can find some good deals. And as was said, most the older tools are higher quality than new ones.

I'd recommend a vice and sturdy bench.  But, I built a gun from a precarve without either lol.  Sat on a stool and the stock across my lap. My back still hurts lol.  And, it wasn't ideal.  Hard to do anything working like that.


Learning use the tools and sharpening them is more important than having a ton of tools. 


Lots of books and videos on the market...Lots of info on this site. Use the search function on this site...You can dig up great threads from the past.  The tutorial section is also great.   

At the end of the day, if you simply take your time, you shouldn't have any problem turning out a decent rifle. If you rush it, or "work ahead" you can run into trouble quick. I know myself well.  I get frustrated easily and I knew some days to not even pick up a tool. Or when to put the tools down and shut off the light for the day.  Like was said..With wood, it's really easy to remove. But not so easy to put back. 1 extra sliver of wood removed while inletting can show a gap.


Also, consider the time. A Chambers kit may be a bit quicker than a plank or pre-carve or most other kits on the market.  But you're still looking at a good bit of time. Especially never doing it before.


But, if you don't think you can handle it, you can find some absolutely beautiful rifles for you price range.  There's nothing wrong with that route.  Building a rifle isn't for everyone.  The time is a big factor.  It took me 4-5 months to finish a precarve...Bits I had little to no idea what I was doing. I learned as I went...I had to buy and often order tools as I went.  I also have a tough schedule so couldn't work on it a ton. Kinda gives you an idea though...I don't have a ton of wood/metal working knowledge but had "some". 



Good luck!  Don't be afraid to ask questions.  Lots of very knowledgeable people here that are willing to share their knowledge. 

Like I said, I've been using the search function a lot lately and can find the answers to many of my questions. 

[ltdann]

Having just finished a Chambers kit, let me tell what I used most frequently.

Set of good wood chisels, mostly used 1/4" and 1/2" with a small wooden mallet

1 pfiel swiss made Straight #3 Gouge Mid Size 12mm and one Straight V-Tool 45 Degree Mid Size 3mm

1 good Nicholson single cut medium flat file, which I ground a safe side.  Used this the most.

1 double cut medium file

A triangle file, also ground with a safe side.

Set of riffler files and a set of jewelers files - harbor freight

1 Stanley surform plane, the long one

A good solid  6" vice, with soft jaw inserts, both plastic and aluminum.  I'm talking one that rotates in both directions....Lowe's

Tap and die that Chambers provide for the touch hole and a small tap and die set that includes 8-32 and 10-32 and corresponding drill bits....#18 and #29 I think

Drill press and RE DAVIS center to center drill rig http://www.redaviscompany.com/0883.html

Sanding block with good quality sand paper from 60-400 grit.  Also bought foam sanding blocks that worked well.  Also scotch brite pads, medium and fine.

Small tack hammer

Decent set of screw drivers

Jewelers saw and a good rigid hacksaw.

Cold chisel for dove tails on the barrel

Small electric hand drill  with assorted small bits

Exacto knife and various blades.  Mostly chisel blade (wide one) and curved for inletting.

Wood scrapers- variety- harbor freight. (didn't use these as much as I thought.)

The art of building pennsylvania long rifle

Turpins DVD that Chambers sells-not to bad.

Jim kieblers Aqus Fortis, LMF nut brown, maple, permalyn sealer and finish.

Patience in quantity.

[Bill Raby]

Definitely need good sharpening stones. The diamond sharpening stones are well worth the money. I used water stones for a lot of years. They work good, but you have to keep re-surfacing them. It gets to be a pain. For basic flat strop, just use a piece of leather glued to a board. For the inside of gouges I got a bunch of different size 8 inch long dowels from 1/8 inch to 1 inch and stuck the to a board. Then glued leather on those. Instead of stropping compound I use 14,000 grit diamond powder. Keeps everything unbelievably sharp.

[ltdann]

Oh, yeah.  As everyone else said, sharpening stones to keep the flat chisels sharpen.  I only brought the pfiel chisels out for the tang carving so  I didn't need to sharpen those.

Also very handy were the disposable finger nail files...you know those sandpaper things?  Got those at hobby lobby, I think

If any of my circle of friends had a drill press, I'd have used theirs.   Could I have done without, sure, but it was handy to have.

Probably spent $150 on tool upgrades, minus the drill press.

[SingleMalt]

I have a drill press that I rarely use.

[Nate McKenzie]

If you're only building one rifle, it might be more economical to pay someone to do it rather investing in the tools.

[Woodsrunner79]

Itdann- that list was exactly what I was looking for.
Gonna think on it a bit. This will be my only build for quite some time so I want to get the most bang for my buck. If having someone build it to my specs is more cost/time efficient than I just my have to do that.
Thank you all for your input.

[ltdann]

That was my first build and I probably over bought tools (didn't include those in the list).  I really was surprised how often I turned to the Nicholson single cut file.  I kept all my files clean with a file card.  Also used the jewelers files more than I thought

From the time I placed my order until I rec'd was a few months, so I had plenty of time to plan out the build, research the steps, watch DVD/read the book and buy the tools. 

Everything I listed I used.

[oldtravler61]

  Woods first thing you need to decide is what you want for style. What you want to do. An what your skill set is. As several have said. You don't need a lot of tools. You also don't need power tools. If you want an easy kit to build in your price range an have a fine looking gun besides. Look at the Jim Kibler kit. For around a grand you get a great gun that is period correct an accurate as well. You also learn the lines of the rifle an how there put together. You will gain experience an prepare yourself for a harder build latter. Just my $00.02. Oldtravler

[thimble rig]

I'm going to agree with the jim kibler kit.Its really easy and you wont need a lot of tools to complete it.Jim is soposed to be coming out with another kit sometime this year,from what I hear.There about the same price to.