aqua fortis / ferric nitrate

[ltdann]

while building, I used Kibler's wonderful aqua fortis to pop the grain.  After I blushed it with the heat gun it turned very dark, not burnt but brown.  It penetrated deeply and required ALOT of scrubbing back.  So much so that I lost some of the crispness details of the carving.

Do you need aqua fortis to get the grain to pop?  If so, what to do to protect the carving?

[Mauser06]

What did you run it back with?? 


I too used his tannic acid and iron nitrate. I didn't have carving...But it didn't take a ton of rubbing to get it where I wanted. 


I used scotchbrite and chambers oil. I think green but may been blue.

[smallpatch]

Ltdann,
What kind of wood did you use it on?
Maple usually turns out with amber/ orange tones in a nice brown base.  As it is a chemical reaction, it is totally dependent on the individual piece of wood. 

[ltdann]

I started with the scotch bright pad and I couldn't get past the green.  I ended up going to  220 grit sandpaper after a few hours, that's where I lost carving detail. 

Don't get me wrong, the iron nitrate worked as advertised and I'm very happy with the coloring, I just didn't expect to have that much trouble scrubbing back.

The more  I scrubbed, the more green returned.  I'd blush again, then scrub.  Vicious cycle.

Just wondering if  I did something incorrectly or if simply using LMF stain instead would have brought the tiger stripes out.

[ltdann]

It's a very nice maple, and yes I got the orangeish brown color.

[Mauser06]

Before heat




After heat.



After rubbing




Finished gun. 


I actually found it rubbed easier than expected....But like was said, different woods and chemical reactions can take place...

I tried paper and it clogged too quickly. I didn't have much time rubbing it back though. Definitely not hours! 

Did you use oil while rubbing it back??   


I used Chambers oil pretty heavy  with the scotchbrite.  I am pretty confident it wouldn't have effected carving because it did the take much pressure or effort to get it rubbed back..

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The colour and its depth into the wood will partially be determined by the amount of polish you have done prior to staining.  I just used tannic acid and ferric nitrate (first time for that combo) on a piece of sugar maple that has been sanded very very smooth, carving included.  When I blused the ferric nitrate after applying over tannic acid, the stock was almost jet black, certainly in the curl.  But a green ScotchBrite took off the 'too much' and four ought steel wool burnished the surface perfectly.  The result was curl that leaps out of the wood, and a lovely red/brown underlying colour.

[ltdann]

This what it looked like before I took the heat gun too it.  After heat it looked brown like the above pic.  I didn't use oil but it took ALOT of work to just leave the curl, sorry didn't take a pic.

I then stained it with LMF nut brown and maple and got this



I'm really happy with it, but the scrubbing back was more than I thought.  Did I do something wrong?  Could I have got the curl to pop with just the stain?

[Kingsburyarms]

This was done with Laurel Mountain Stain only:

[ltdann]

so similar results...mmm something to think about.  Thanks.

[Joe S]

Is Kibbler’s stain solid crystals, or a water or alcohol based liquid?  If it’s alcohol, it will penetrate more than a water based stain.  Tannic acid will give darker browns than just the native wood.

You could certainly dilute the stain before you used it – that would give you lighter colors.  And, as Taylor mentioned, surface preparation makes a difference too.  The same piece of wood will respond differently if the finish is scraped, vs one that is sanded.  The amount of heat you use will also affect color.  The iron nitrate molecules in AF are loosely bound to 6 or 7 water molecules.  When you heat, you are driving off the water.  The number of molecules left determines the color.  Mad Monk discusses this chemistry in detail somewhere in the ALR fiules.

It’s a little late now, but it’s always best to test the stain, especially if you use AF. 

[Kingsburyarms]

Just to throw you a curve ball, Here are the results of Jim Kibler's Iron Nitrate with 50% Thinned Laurel Mountain Honey Maple on a curly sugar maple stock. I don't think I could get the iridescence that this rifle has without the Nitrate. The curl actually moves with the angle of the light. 

 

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

      ....Perfect, Kingsbury...!!!  ...  Could you describe your process, step-by-step please....

[Kingsburyarms]

Don't want to steal Lt. Dan's Thread -

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=41167.0

[ltdann]

Nice!

[Mark Elliott]

I started with the scotch bright pad and I couldn't get past the green.  I ended up going to  220 grit sandpaper after a few hours, that's where I lost carving detail. 

Don't get me wrong, the iron nitrate worked as advertised and I'm very happy with the coloring, I just didn't expect to have that much trouble scrubbing back.

The more  I scrubbed, the more green returned.  I'd blush again, then scrub.  Vicious cycle.

Just wondering if  I did something incorrectly or if simply using LMF stain instead would have brought the tiger stripes out.

I don't understand what you mean by can't get past the green.    The only green that I have ever possibly encountered in using AF is before heat is applied.   Once you apply the heat, then a green Scothbrite should just lighten the brown a little bit.   The only thing I can think of causing your problem is if you used too much or too high a concentration of Tannic acid or AF.    The only time I ever used tannic acid,  I just covered the bottom of a shot glass in the powder and filled it with water.    As to AF,  I fill the shot glass a little less than half with AF and then had another half of water.   This way,  I ease up on the darkness of finish I want.   Usually,  I apply two coats.   That is,  one coat then heat, then another coat and heat.   I let the solution dry first before heating.   

[ltdann]

Mark,

After I used the heat, the wood turned orange/ brown.   When I scrubbed back, there was still green underneath.  I waited 4 hours after applying AF, before heating, as the directions stated but that's what  I got.

[Dphariss]

I started with the scotch bright pad and I couldn't get past the green.  I ended up going to  220 grit sandpaper after a few hours, that's where I lost carving detail. 

Don't get me wrong, the iron nitrate worked as advertised and I'm very happy with the coloring, I just didn't expect to have that much trouble scrubbing back.

The more  I scrubbed, the more green returned.  I'd blush again, then scrub.  Vicious cycle.

Just wondering if  I did something incorrectly or if simply using LMF stain instead would have brought the tiger stripes out.

If you had GREEN something is wrong, not properly reacted maybe. Wood must be warmed slowly to heat the wood deeply to get to all the stain in the wood. Should never have to scrub it back. Put on, let set till dry, blush well repeat process is a light spot presents, oil the wood.

Dan

[Joe S]

You didn't get it hot enough.  Or, you didn't let the heat penetrate deep enough if you want to look at it that way.  Green AF is simply AF that has not been heated enough to drive off the appended water molecules.  Like Dan said, you need to heat it slowly and evenly.  The wood should be somewhere between very warm and hot to the touch.  Be cafeful with hot - you're approaching scorching the carving.

[ltdann]

be warmed slowly to heat the wood deeply to get to all the stain in the wood

That makes sense.  It seemed to change colors a lot faster than I expected.

Next time, I'll let it dry overnight as well.   

[Mauser06]

That was gunna be my guess....Not enough heat.  Mine turned that cherry red color as you see after heating.


As to aqua Fortis vs regular stain, I don't think you get the depth and holographic like qualities from stains.  It may show the curl. But it's not as clear as aqua Fortis.

Like was said, mine literally changes colors and is holographic as you move it... Especially different lighting conditions.  It's pretty neat stuff...

[Dphariss]

The color will pop out as the SURFACE is heated, but for full reaction the wood needs to be pretty darned warm, using the heat gun on high is too much heat and can scorch the corners and relief work. Unreacted acid stain is more acidic than fully reacted stain and this is something else to worry about
The ONLY time I ever sanded a stock after AF was when I screwed up a forend for a two piece stock and had to use another with similar curl. The butts came out black curl and dark red. The forend would not match so I wet sanded, using stock oil, with 2000 grit until the color got closer. Made the buttstock almost like a mirror but I wanted to go slow.

Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Laurel Mountain Forge's stains do not penetrate deeply enough, and are not permanant enough for me.  They wear off i my hand, right through the finish, and are susceptible to UV sunlight fading them.  I don't use them anymore.  Ferric nitrate is permanent and very durable.

[Dennis Glazener]

Could I have got the curl to pop with just the stain?

I am sure others are going to weigh in with their own experiences but I have never been able to get LMF stain to bring out the curl/grain like AF. I love the LMF Nut Brown and have used it several times but to me it always has a murky/shallow appearance if used on bare wood. I have experimented using it on the same piece of maple and I have liked the AF the best. Once in a while I have used light coats of LMF after using AF.

My one try with Tannic Acid/Ferric Nitrate did not impress me at all but it may have been the wood. Unfortunately I did not test in advance. I ended up with more of a lighter tan/brown (even though I was concerned that I made the two solutions too strong) rather than the reddish/brown that I normally get with AF. I will try it again but you can bet I will test it on scrap wood from the same blank beforehand.
Dennis

[elkhorne]

Kingsburyarms,
What did you thin the LMF with after the ferric nitrate/AF was applied and blushed?
elkhorne