A faster flash in the pan

[Matthew1969]

Hello to all. I mostly lurk on this terrific site, trying to glean all the info I can. A lifelong cap shooter just emerging myself into the flintlock world. Wonderful stuff! However, those of you with great experience and the knack to share it just don't post enough! Or I am just really late to the party. So I decided to pose a couple questions, probably pretty basic, but I need and value your input.
   How much powder goes into the pan to ignite the main charge? Does the amount of powder grossly affect the time between ignitions? Do you load pistols heavier/lighter than rifles? Does caliber come into consideration? And what else relating to these question should I know?
   Thanks to all for your replies.
        Best wishes,
        Matthew

[Dennis Glazener]

 How much powder goes into the pan to ignite the main charge? I fill mine at least 3/4 full, sometimes more but careful not to overflow where pan will not shut tightly.

Does the amount of powder grossly affect the time between ignitions? Not that I have noticed but I am sure it would with extreme differences in how the pan is filled.

Does caliber come into consideration? In what manner? Normally the priming will be the same regardless of caliber.

I will let someone else answer the one about pistols.

The other thing you should know is to buy the best flintlock you can find. Nothing any more aggravating than a lock that mis-fires
Dennis

[Standing Bear]

Hi, Matthew, welcome to flintlocks. It is sometimes known as a fine and pleasant misery.  The most important thing in flintlock shooting is a well tuned lock. I cannot offer any tuning hints there except to use a good flint properly mounted in your lock. 

I use black English flints mostly but have some that Work well from Missouri and Oklahoma chert. They should be the same width as the frozen and start off at half cock just touching or be just off the frizzen. As they wear they will still work till too dull.  They can be mounted in the cock bevel up or bevel down but only experimenting will tell. A sharp flint at the right angle and a correctly hardened frizzen WILL MAKE SPARKS.

The touch hole should be near the top of the pan (heat rises) and I automatically open any new ones to 1/16".  Mr Pletcher has high speed photography showing many experiments with priming - full pan, partial, near barrel' far side from pan, etc. mine work well w a pan full (approx 3 gr.) of

I use 4F, 7 F or Null B to prime. Again Pletch's photography shows it to be a little faster tho the human eye and ear may not be able to discern it. A little confidence helps.
Good luck enjoy the journey.
TC

[Daryl]

Flintlocks are more fun and more fulfilling to shoot.

I fill the pan - more powder, hotter flash and potentially faster or more sure ignition.

In Pletch's photo tests, iirc, the pan was completely consumed & burning hot before ignition of the main charge took place. More prime, hotter flash, more consistent ignition.  He also found that banking the powder away from the pan, as written in print by one author, actually slowed ignition, opposite as was claimed.

Banking the powder against the vent also increased ignition speed, not slowing it as others have claimed.

The web of steel between the pan and the barrel's main charge can have an effect as well. With my Chambers hollowed white lightning liners, the bore's charge is visible at the vent - VERY rarely have I had a flash in the pan with the main charge not going off.  The odd time that has happened, was due to a piece of fouling blocking the vent, usually coming of the side of the frizzen as it was closed.  If the pan goes off, so does the main charge - 99% of the time?

This might be due primarily to the proximity of the powder to the prime or coupled in concert with using a full pan for hotter flash.

Pistols usually have smaller locks, thus smaller pans, less prime.  I still fill the pan of my flint pistol.  It has 2 barrels, an 18" twist GM .45 that I shoot 25gr. 3F with caplock ignition and a .54 cal with 66" twist with the flint ignition in which I use 55gr. 3F to get good accuracy.

Less powder than that in either barrel does not hold accuracy to 50yards like 55gr. does in this barrel and 25gr. in the .45. 

The cap-lock (change locks when I change barrels) .45 barrel also shoots exceptionally well with 200gr. R.E.A.L. bullets, making a 1 1/2" group for 6 shots at 30 yards off the bags - using the same 25gr. 3F for the charge.

I also prime with 4F.

[WadePatton]

Here's how mine fires with half a pan of 2F.  I fill 3/4 or so for general hunting, but this was just a target shot.  Flash hole liner is being used, but I can't tell you which one.

FFWD to 1:10 for the action, she lights around 1:12.  The rest of it is me getting into position, remembering to install earplugs, sighting up again, and my boy dog getting excited in the truck (with the camera).  I point a gun and his mind sees CRITTERS!

Finer-grained powders can leave you with an empty pan if you're hunting on a breezy day and don't have a perfectly sealed pan.  This is why I prime "from the horn" and also grease the perimeter of the pan when hunting.  That charge had been in the bbl several days I'm sure. 

Also the lock is a Nock* replica (English) that I've re-angled the cock and reworked the mainspring on, along with the normal internals polishing.  English flint.




*Henry Nock wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Nock

[Daryl]

This is  a full pan (& then some) of 3F from the horn.

[Matthew1969]

Appreciate the responses, videos are great! I asked and you folks delivered!
Matthew

[Mike Brooks]

Good Lord Wade! That was the most suspense filled video I have ever seen. I was jumping around the living room screaming at the top of my lungs "CHOOT IT WADE, CHOOT IT, DEAR GOD PLEASE HELP WADE CHOOT HIS GUN!"

You might have a great career directing some of those teenage slasher movies......

[oldtravler61]

  Now Mike dats funny.....!     Mike

[hanshi]

My philosophy on prime is "less is more".  I put in anywhere from a smidgen to half full; average about 1/3 full.  It just sounds faster than a full pan.  In the woods I usually pay little attention to the amount; I'm just concerned with getting some in the pan.

[Marcruger]

I find flinters to be at least as fast as percussion when set up right.  As far as I can tell......

You need a GOOD lock (like a Chambers product or similar) with a good flint mounted correctly. 

After firing, I wipe the face of the frizzen, then the edge of the flint, and then the pan with a spare dry patch.  This gets the moisture happy fouling away from the new prime.  It makes a difference for me. 

Once loaded, I then pick the touch hole to give the flash a channel into the center of the main charge.  It also insures the touch hole is clean and not fouled.  My pick is brass to not wear the flash hole in an undue manner.  Steel picks concern me on that front. 

I then load my pan with about a 3/4 full load of Null B Swiss powder.  I bump the rifle with my hand to nudge the powder towards the flash hole.   

My rifle goes off "right now".  Once I extended the jaw/flint leather out to the end of the flint (on the top side), I have no more breaking or chipping of my flints and they last a long time.  My rifle has a Late Ketland from Jim Chambers. 

Hope this helps.  All of this was taught to me by my good friend who shoots competition, or that I learned from research.  None of this is "voodoo" or "wishing".  Each step has a point to it, and it all combines to make a reliable & fast rifle.  Thanks Ed! 

Best wishes,   Marc

[WadePatton]

Good Lord Wade! That was the most suspense filled video I have ever seen. I was jumping around the living room screaming at the top of my lungs "CHOOT IT WADE, CHOOT IT, DEAR GOD PLEASE HELP WADE CHOOT HIS GUN!"

You might have a great career directing some of those teenage slasher movies......

Couldn't get dat 'gator to hold still for a minnit.


You should have seen it before editing.  Also, I make tighter edits now.   

Hey I gave a "FFWD to" timestamp, not my fault you didn't. 

[hanshi]

A well set up flintlock can be fast, very fast, and seem almost instantaneous.  But caplocks are faster to fire when the hammer drops.  Shooting them separately on different days does make it difficult to discern a difference.  Fired the same day, particularly side by side, the faster ignition of the percussion is noticeable. 

I like them both and have killed deer with both.  A good flintlock certainly is fast enough for any use that I can think of; I've made running shots on deer with them.  Since flintlocks make up 98% of what I shoot, and 100% of what I hunt with, they are my favorite.  Still, I know flint will never equal cap in speed much less surpass it.

[Daryl]

Considering my slightly delayed flinch (when it happens) I cannot beat the ignition of my cap guns nor my modern guns, but if I do it, I can beat all my(and anybody else's) flinters, just about every single time. Everyone who has been with me on a trail have heard me say- "I have NO idea how I hit that one, my eyes were closed before the flint hit the frizzen".

[Marcruger]

I bow to folks with more experience and wisdom than I. 

I do find that on occasion I have the flint rifle go off, and I swear I missed.  And for some reason the target is hit.  I guess that is the difference in a good rifle and a great one!   ;-) 

God Bless,   Marc

[Joe S.]

Considering my slightly delayed flinch (when it happens) I cannot beat the ignition of my cap guns nor my modern guns, but if I do it, I can beat all my(and anybody else's) flinters, just about every single time. Everyone who has been with me on a trail have heard me say- "I have NO idea how I hit that one, my eyes were closed before the flint hit the frizzen".

must be the thin air way up there in the great white north,LOL

[trentOH]

This is  a full pan (& then some) of 3F from the horn.

Note in Daryl's video that when he is getting ready to fire, the cameraman steps toward his rear a step or two. There is a jet of fire from the vent upon ignition which will shoot out to the side, and you don't want to be in it's way. It fizzles out pretty quickly, usually, but might still bite you if you are it it's path.

[bob in the woods]

To the subject of a faster flash in the pan ;  the more sparks you have, the better chance of one getting there fast. Using a finer powder in the pan , with a massive shower of sparks will give the fastest results re the pan. However, there is a bit more involved if you are talking about ignition of the main charge. My hunting rifle has a 5/64th touch hole which gives me pretty much 100% reliable ignition. A cap lock needs to have the hammer complete it's travel, in order to fire the "cap".
A spark can hit and ignite the pan way before the cock has completed it's arc. 

[kudu]

when I started just a 2 years ago I started with a flintlock, so I maybe biased. But I really like it I have been asked by some fellows that have been shooting for 25 years how did you get so good in such a short time. dont the flash (in the pan) distract you? you dont flinch ever? and so on.

well I think I started with a good rifle- a Rice barrel, Chambers/siler lock and the big thing no recoil it's a 40. cal

I also built the Rifle to fit me the drop, lenghth of pull, and the weight of the gun is light even with a 41" barrel (it is 3/4 od straight.)

And no I never have been able to see the "flash" not once! Im looking at the target.

But on my very first woods walk I went by myself (I always do) and was paired up with two old fellows , on one target their is a lifesize Hog/Boar steel cut out on a pulley system where you pull the string and let go and the target moves at a real nice pace.

well to shorten the story I was holding the rope for one of the older guys, standing on his right side waiting for the "PULL" I saw the Flash that day and nearly was unable to finish the course.
 
I learned alot that day and am still learning.

[bgf]

I'm not the best flintlock shooters, near the bottom of the barrel, but I might be the most stubborn.  To complicate things, I switched at the same time my natural talents, strength and eyesight began a sometimes gradual often precipitous decline.  The advice above is all good: eliminate as many variables as possible, develop a routine, and shoot enough that when the inevitable problem pops up you lose at most one shot, not the rest of the match!

Powder in pan, I just fill it up!  Goex 4f is fine, swiss null b probably even better for matches, but 3f or even 2f from horn works too. 

#1 factor for ignition seems to be a short, clean, adequately sized touch hole.  A hair under 1/16" is the smallest I'll use, since prevailing conditions can clog a smaller one. 

You'll be fine, just get that flintlock out and you'll likely find caplocks become miserable alternatives soon!

[Marcruger]

"I learned alot that day and am still learning."

Kudu, I find that I can always learn something new too.  :-)   I ask a lot of questions.  I find that most folks will share everything they know if I ask respectfully.  ESPECIALLY in the field of longrifles.  Most excellent. 

Best wishes, and God Bless,   Marc

[Daryl]

The larger, ie: worn vents will spew seemingly larger particles of burning material and spew them further than a 1/16" vent. Best to not stand in the way of the vent.  Usually the shooter will warn newcomers, but with 'old hands' it is not necessary.  Being sprayed a time or two is a good teacher, but at times, we do get a bit lax, especially when yacking.

[kudu]

yep your right about the vent hole size Daryl.  the thing I was worried about was my eyesight I had to do the "once over" to see
if my left eye was still ok!  I was not wearing shooting glasses. And all on my first woods walk!

I have worn glasses in the line matches- once in a while, they are safety type shooting glasses with yellow lenses I do get some comments  about not period/origional I guess I need some clear ones to meet the traditional police requirements

[Mike Brooks]

yep your right about the vent hole size Daryl.  the thing I was worried about was my eyesight I had to do the "once over" to see
if my left eye was still ok!  I was not wearing shooting glasses. And all on my first woods walk!

I have worn glasses in the line matches- once in a while, they are safety type shooting glasses with yellow lenses I do get some comments  about not period/origional I guess I need some clear ones to meet the traditional police requirements

I used to worry about that kind of stuff, not so much anymore.

[Smoketown]

Safety trumps PC every time.

You can remove the yellow glasses for the photo opp.   

Cheers,
Smoketown