Paper Cartridges

[Frank]

Anybody use paper cartridges in their 20 gauge smoothbores? What kind of results have you had and what powder charges and ball sizes seem to work best.

I have been shooting flintlock rifles since 1975 and am putting together one of Clay Smith's early trade guns. This will be my first foray
into smoothbores. Will be trying different combinations, patched ball, bare ball and tow, bare ball and wads/cards. etc...
I thought using paper cartridges would be interesting as well and would make for faster reloading.

[thecapgunkid]

could not get it to group less than 4 inches even at 25 yards, no matter what load.  I ended up with a lubed felt wad and loading block at about 60 grains FF.

Paper seems to work better in the larger bore of my Charleville.  I have grouped that at about two inches with paper.

Not enough time or inclination to figure out why.

Don't shoot yore eye out, kid

The Capgun Kid

[gumboman]

Have tried paper cartridges in my 62 caliber caplock rifle with very poor success. Accuracy was not possible in my rifle. Recovered paper clearly showed it burned to a crisp during firing. Used different number of wrappings to get a tight fit of ball to bore but nothing I did improved accuracy. In my opinion paper cartridges could work ok in smooth bore guns but its not for rifles if one hopes to get accuracy.

[bob in the woods]

I have shot 2 deer and 1 bear using paper cartridges in my .62 cal Edward Marshall rifle [ Chambers]   Accuracy is excellent
I use a .600 cast ball and 100 gr of FFg   wrapped in bond paper, and then dipped in a mix of bear oil and bee's wax[ soft ]
Cartridges are tapered so that I can tear off the end, insert the cartridge in the barrel , letting the powder drain into the bore while I'm drawing my ram rod.   I have had success with cartridges in rifles down to .54, but not less than that. They are about all I use when shooting round balls in my smoothbores. I don't have any problem with paper being burnt to a crisp, so can't comment on that regard.

[thecapgunkid]

Bob...any difference in cleaning? 

[Frank]

I have shot 2 deer and 1 bear using paper cartridges in my .62 cal Edward Marshall rifle [ Chambers]   Accuracy is excellent
I use a .600 cast ball and 100 gr of FFg   wrapped in bond paper, and then dipped in a mix of bear oil and bee's wax[ soft ]
Cartridges are tapered so that I can tear off the end, insert the cartridge in the barrel , letting the powder drain into the bore while I'm drawing my ram rod.   I have had success with cartridges in rifles down to .54, but not less than that. They are about all I use when shooting round balls in my smoothbores. I don't have any problem with paper being burnt to a crisp, so can't comment on that regard.

What exactly is bond paper? I did a search online and it sounds like the stuff we used for drafting paper years ago. Anyway, it appears that Office Depot has it in pads of 8 1/2 X 11 inch sheets. Was hoping copy paper might work as it is more easily found. Thanks

Did some additional searching and one definition says it is the paper used in copiers and printers, ie printer/copy paper.  ?

[bob in the woods]

I'm sure that copy paper would work. Watch the "grain" of the paper i.e. the direction in which it teats more easily.  It helps if you can tear off the end of the cartridge . I had some that were almost impossible to open without a blade before i caught on to the grain of the paper.  I can fire 8 to 12 or so without problems [ cleaning] after which I just load a wet patched ball and fire that. Then it's back to the cartridges.  Look up Daryl's posts on cartridges and you'll find some photos and good info.

[Frank]

Thanks Bob. Lots of good info there. Seems the key is finding the right kind of paper. Clark in Daryl's thread mentions the paper used in brown paper lunch bags as the best. Going to take some experimentation. What is the exact paper you are using. Name brand, type etc...

[Daryl]

Paper ctgs. gave me the same excellent accuracy as patched round balls in my .69 - out to 100 yards that is.
I tried them in a .75 cal Bess, and it shot them just fine.
I use balls and patched to fit closely in the bore of both rifle and smoothie.
The US military used very loose combinations. A loose combination will allow gas blow-by which will cause burning of the paper and maybe even start fires.
The paper was blown to bits when fired in my rifle- never had any burning nor smoking.  The Bess usually deposited the whole paper ctg. on the ground in one piece.

[Daryl]

[Frank]

Thanks Daryl. What have you found to be the best paper to use?

[Mauser06]

So I am understanding this correctly....



The ball and powder is in the cartridge?   


Patch on the ball? Or bare ball just under bore size? 


Open the bottom and dump the powder down the bore...Then the ball...?  The paper that held the powder compresses and crumpled up acting as a wad/seal of sorts? 



How does the paper not catch fire??  I'd be concerned about that...?    I was test firing a rifle and had a loose patch that smoldered enough to start a grass fire.   


Probably could use a dab of super glue to close the paper around the ball to make the tube for the powder and another day to close the bottom and make them up pretty quick. 

Any kind of wad or shot card above or below?? 

With a shot charge, could maybe do the same...Wrap the paper around a wad and do the same on the powder end and the shot end.  Probably have to tear off the top end above the shot to avoid having a shot slug...And run a shot card down on top of the cartridge. 


Like was said, could use a grease type lube on the cartridge. My wheels are turning...

[bob in the woods]

Paper..."bond" paper, or white tablet writing pad paper, or whatever. The paper cartridge [ mine are somewhat cone shaped ] consists of the paper cutout being wrapped around a dowel that I have tapered . I use a glue stick to glue the edge . After I slide the dowel out, I insert a ball, then pinch and tie the end with a fine cotton string. The cartridge is now ready for dipping in my melted lube [ beeswax and bear oil mix ]  I lube the ball end about an inch or so . The lube saturates the paper and leaves a nice coating on the surface too. I dip them and then put them on a newspaper to cool. Then they are ready for the powder. I use a funnel to charge them, then fold the cartridge end over about 3/8ths of an inch and glue . Tear off the narrow end, and insert in the barrel. The taper makes this easy, and the powder drains into the barrel while you draw your rod . The cartridge is pushed home to the breach as is. i.e. the section that held the powder will compress into a wad, and the ball is basically paper patched.The wad isn't over the ball to keep it from moving forward in the barrel....it's under it. The ball, being patched, doesn't require an over wad. I load these cartridges in my smoothbore and rifle both.  My .62 cal rifle has a Rice barrel and I use a .600 ball in the cartridge. I hope this explains things.

[Mauser06]

Thanx Bob!  I appreciate the info! 


Very interesting!  I've heard of paper cartridges before and knew some of their uses. But really never thought of using them that way. 



Does the paper and ball separate upon the shot?   Or does it stay attached?   Looks like the ball is pretty well secured in the paper....If it stays on, you have a paper fin flailing around behind the ball?  Wouldn't think that'd be accurate...But I have been reading previous posts since I last posted, and sounds like they are accurate as a patched ball. 


My barrel will be back from being jugged soon.  Was once a Colerain turkey barrel. So I am looking forward to experimenting with roundball loads in it. 


I also did a bit of small game hunting with it this fall. The reloading process took a bit of time and cost me a few squirrel doubles.

First concern will be working up a turkey load again before the season.  After that, I will experiment with round balls and coming up with different loads for different critters.  And, experimenting with paper cartridges. 


I like the idea. I'm not huge on carrying a bunch of stuff.  A few cartridges and a few essentials could go in a small bag or even a coat pocket. 

[rich pierce]

I can't recall seeing paper cartridges for shot. Have seen for buck and ball so seems possible. But if the paper split on ramming all the shot might roll out?

[Percy]

Some of the posts and pictures indicate a string tied around the paper between the ball and powder. Is this required?

Percy

[bob in the woods]

I only use string on the end of the cartridge. One thing I should mention is that the combination I load in my rifle is about on par with my cloth patched loads as far as fitting the bore is concerned. I never got the accuracy I was after in my smoothbore using tight fitting patch/ball  or cartridge loads. The cartridge loads easily, and while not being a "loose" fit, it isn't what you would call a tight fit.
Experiment with your load to find out what the gun likes best

[Daryl]

The ball is naked inside the paper.  I form the ctg. around the tapered dowl.  I then fold the paper over on the large end and glue. I drop a ball into the ctg., then pour in the powder using a funnel then fold over on the bottom and glue. I did not put lube on my ctgs. but do not see why that would not work just fine.
To load - just as Bobinthewoods noted.
Mine were a tight fit in the bore, needing to choke up on the loading rod to get them started.

I used a .682-4" ball in the .690" bore and 2 wraps of .003" bond.  The paper did not tear when loading. It would be equivalent to about 18 pound printing paper, I'd expect.

The .682" were pure lead, the .684" were normal old WW alloy, both from the same mould.  The paper blew off the ball at the muzzle- I assume.

[Percy]

Daryl: I'm confused, nothing new according to my wife. You form over a tapered dowel, remove dowel, fold and seal large end, drop in the ball, add powder? Don't you put the ball in the large end before you fold and seal it and then add powder thru the small end?

Bobinthewoods: I'm finishing up a  20 gauge that has a .615" bore. I've got some .590" balls and mold, do you think the load will be too loose using a paper cartridge? I know I'll have to do some testing but we've got 2 feet of snow on the ground now and more coming so it will be awhile. If you think the load will be to loose I'll order a bigger mold or get some larger balls so I can start testing as soon as the weather breaks.

Percy

[bob in the woods]

Ref the .590 ball, I would try it . You can use a larger piece of paper and perhaps get 3 wraps or more around the ball ...One thing I've found is that smoothbores march to a different drum than do rifles. Load combinations that I would have thought too loose to shoot well, often are very accurate. A friend here shoots a .500 ball in his .54 smoothy, and it works well for him

[Dphariss]

Have tried paper cartridges in my 62 caliber caplock rifle with very poor success. Accuracy was not possible in my rifle. Recovered paper clearly showed it burned to a crisp during firing. Used different number of wrappings to get a tight fit of ball to bore but nothing I did improved accuracy. In my opinion paper cartridges could work ok in smooth bore guns but its not for rifles if one hopes to get accuracy.

They work great in my 67 caliber rifle but only for a shot or two. Exact point of impact with PRB at 50 yards. Never burns the paper. Use a steep taper on the cartridge. Tear the very end, put in the muzzle. Powder runs out as the rod in withdrawn push down and shoot.
Seem to be good in my 50 cal. But if you have barrel with excessive deep or narrow grooves it may not work. The .67 is .008 and the GM 50 cal is pretty shallow too both have narrow lands by RB standards.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Daryl: I'm confused, nothing new according to my wife. You form over a tapered dowel, remove dowel, fold and seal large end, drop in the ball, add powder? Don't you put the ball in the large end before you fold and seal it and then add powder thru the small end?

Bobinthewoods: I'm finishing up a  20 gauge that has a .615" bore. I've got some .590" balls and mold, do you think the load will be too loose using a paper cartridge? I know I'll have to do some testing but we've got 2 feet of snow on the ground now and more coming so it will be awhile. If you think the load will be to loose I'll order a bigger mold or get some larger balls so I can start testing as soon as the weather breaks.

Percy

Powder then ball. The ball in the big end. Tear off the small end and put in the barrel powder runs out as you prepare to ram.
This is for my 50 cal and it has less taper than for my larger bore English style sporting rifle.

Dan

[Daryl]

Daryl: I'm confused, nothing new according to my wife. You form over a tapered dowel, remove dowel, fold and seal large end, drop in the ball, add powder? Don't you put the ball in the large end before you fold and seal it and then add powder thru the small end?

Bobinthewoods: I'm finishing up a  20 gauge that has a .615" bore. I've got some .590" balls and mold, do you think the load will be too loose using a paper cartridge? I know I'll have to do some testing but we've got 2 feet of snow on the ground now and more coming so it will be awhile. If you think the load will be to loose I'll order a bigger mold or get some larger balls so I can start testing as soon as the weather breaks.

Percy

I shove my finger into the ctg. folding the paper over my finger with some glue on the paper.  For me and my clumsiness, this is easier than trying to hold a heavy ball in the end on the tip of my finger and folding the paper over the ball. The finger works well and is faster - this is important to me - speed!  I'd rather be shooting than making ctgs.  Fact is, they work.

My 14 bore (.69) rifle has .012" deep rifling - I can fire 10 ctgs. before needing to either wipe the bore or shoot a spit or water based lubed patch and round ball load with a squib load, 82gr. 2F to clean the bore. After that, I can fire another 10 ctgs./ no accuracy loss for those 10- then fire another wet-patched ball squib load.

My buddy Keith has a .75 calibre rifle Taylor made on Track's Purdey pattern.  His rifle has deep, .024" rifling. He can only fire 3 or 4 paper ctg.s before fouling becomes a problem. Considering he's only ever needed the FIRST shot for a moose, 3 or 4 is all that is necessary.  I experimented with his rifle and a single shot using 100gr. 2f and a tightly WET patched ball effectively cleaned the bore allowing another 3 or 4 ctgs. to be loaded and fired.

When I was practiced with this ctgs. I could reload, cap and fire an AIMED shot in 8 seconds.  I used alloyed balls for my paper ctgs., pure lead for the first shot in the mink-oiled .030" patch.
I carried the paper ctgs. in my parka pocket, with the disk "capper" in my top parka pocket, left side.  This was for hunting in freezing weather, which ran down to -40C at times & once to -56C.  My Chevy 6.2 LT. diesel was the only truck to start. Imagine that. warmed the oil pan with a stove elbow and tiger torch, then a squirt of ether - worked. Sure sounded ansty-bad for quite a while warming up.

[Percy]

I've got a .54 rifle and a .62/20 gauge smoothbore, can't wait to give paper cartridges a try.

Thanks everyone for all the help,  Percy

[Daryl]

One of the lads on here, years ago, found they worked right down to his .54 cal, but I do not know the loads he used.

The problems with smaller calibres, is they develop higher pressures & do this much more quickly.  With a patched round ball, it may be impossible to get a 16 or 14 bore rifle to develop over about 12,000psi as shown by the low velocities which develop heavy recoil.  This is very easily done in .40 to .50 calibres with normal loads that have little or no recoil due to the light weight balls.

Check your old copy of Lyman's Black Powder Handbook for velocity/pressure relationships between the various calibres. With a 'given' granulation of powder, different rifles seem to develop similar pressures when producing the similar velocities.

The larger bores are simply low pressure devices, which logically shows why the larger bores are better users of paper ctgs.  The higher pressure rounds cause blow-by and burning of the paper due to the high pressure gasses flowing past the paper wad between the powder and ball.  The lower pressures are less capable of doing this.
I shot paper ctgs. up to 1,550fps, which gave the same velocity as my tight (.030") patches developed with the same balls, using the very same powder charge.  This shows in this large bore, even with 165gr. 2F, there was literally no blow-by- the paper NEVER caught fire, nor was burnt in any way nor even scorched.