Pretty Mark

[JCKelly]

Just got a Traditions Kentucky kit. By ALR standards it is a horrid thing - no style, ghastly lock internals, assembly methods, &c, &c.

Yeah. Nevertheless I picked a Traditions kit for three reasons.

What first got my attention was this video that shows two guys torturing a Traditions "Kentucky" to blow it up with a couple grades of Hodgdon smokeless.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en384qVqrug&feature=youtu.be   

No, I would never use any amount of smokeless in this or any other muzzle loader. It was the manner in which this thing blew that impressed me. Early in the test the first damage the gun showed, with  smokeless, was the barrel bulged about half way along. Didn't actually burst but I think that bulge would have gotten many (not all, sadly) shooters' attention. Then later with a heavier load the whole breech end blew off. The bulged area was still more or less OK, I think. To a guy who has seen various broken metal thingies since JFK was foolin' around with Marilyn this was significant.

Second, I remember about two score years back doing metallography on an odd piece of CVA rifle barrel, just curious. It looked to be a nice, CLEAN low carbon steel. Maybe like a  1015 or 1018, annealed. CLEAN means it had no sulfur stringers or bits of lead in it. When machined, the chips would be long and stringy. Cutting today's common American barrel steel makes short, crumbly chips.

I do not like "crumbly" steel associated with any barrel I might shoot.

When I unpacked the barrel I got a surprise. This beautiful stamping  -


I am told that CIP (Commission Internationale Permanente Pour L'epreuve des Armes a Feu Portatives) is the European equivalent of SAAMI. PN and the shield represents an Eibar proof house.
Would like it if someone can confirm this, with a reference to such information.

Anyway I think this barrel ain't made of no $#@!!&%* free-machining steel and I can maybe comfortably shoot it with black. Yup, that Pain-in-the-### metallurgist is finally happy. For himself.

Hope to turn the kit into a Faux Leman Indian rifle, with the help of painted stripes, old tacks, a TOW capbox & maybe some rawhide. Even at my best, the results will not be suitable for  inclusion here with the craftsmen of ALR. But it will give me something to mess around with.

[Hungry Horse]

 These are a great learning project. Using one of these kits as a test mule for different techniques is quite enjoyable. And to be honest the low pressure of not having to worry about pricy wood, and costly fittings, make one of these builds very enjoyable. I think of this sort of build much like a model builder would a low detail shelf model, or a custom car builder would a rat rod. They are fun, low stress, and a great learning tool. I'm not sure I would do a flint version unless I had an old CVA flintlock for parts. The Traditions Kentucky flintlock is really junk. I would consider a better triggerguard as well the kit part is notorious for breaking at the middle screw hole, and isn't typical of early guns.

  Hungry Horse

[g2608671@verizon.net]

Yep, that's why I started "building" with a Traditions kit. Kind of like a shake-down-cruise or a hands on lesson to simply get a feel for the basics.  Frankly, I have not fired mine yet as the weather has been uncooperative. But I know she sparks real good.  And, I did learn enough to be confident -  but very careful - in the next build. Lots more to learn.

[Daryl]

CIP, I have read is close to what SAAMI is here, but only close as CIP is law in Europe, whereas SAAMI is a suggestion of standards, not law, in the USA.
I was impressed the barrel did not 'blow" the first smokeless load, but only bulged - and likely that, at a dovetail.
RE-watched that video - an experiment like this is a good use for one of THOSE.

[JCKelly]

With respect to that brittle guard, I have a Reaves Goehring Lancaster trigger guard. With a touch of the file will match some of those shown in Rifles of the American Indian, a book with great photography.   

Use to think these Spanish rifles were kinda wacky, in that one had to remove the drum before the breechplug. Drum threaded into the side of the plug.
Huh.
Would swear I just read that Leman did the same, to make a stronger breech.
Like the original Leman barrel here, right below the Spanish barrel.
           
Ramrod goes down Spanish barrel only to about 1/16" fore of the drum. Yep, drum screws into the side of the breechplug.
Looking down from the top old Leman barrel also appears to have the drum screwed into the breechplug.
Guess some Spaniard paid attention to what Henry Eichholtz Leman did, or at least thought along the same lines. Drum is a weak area in such rifles, which is why the military, and top-class makers, used a "patent" breech.
You might not that, in the video, the entire breech neatly blew off. Only speculation, but it might maybe have separated just ahead of the drum

I have a different view of this horrid little (kit) rifle than do the rest of you.
To me, the barrel is the heart of the rifle. All the rest of the stuff is to get it loaded, pointed in the right direction, and discharged.

[Daryl]

Given an Example of an original, the Spanish and Italians are/were very good at copying exactly what is in front of them. 
Just look at the other 'replica' ML's and ctg. guns for that matter - some of which are better than the originals and made from much better materials as well.

[Gaeckle]

With regards to the proof marks, I believe that the 'PN' represents the year that the barrel was made. My Spanish year proof codes for years of manufacture only go to 2006 and those are Z2.....

[Hungry Horse]

 Some older kits that might fall into some of your possession are really good for this kind of build. The first one to come to mind is the Numrich minuteman. With a little work they can make a pretty good looking trade rifle reminiscent of the Henry Lancaster pattern. There was another fullstock that very much resembled the earlier Leman fullstock percussion rifle, and even had a correct capbox, but I can't remember who made it. I saw a Minuteman done up to reflect native ownership in a steakhouse a few years ago that was so convincing that I had to go across the room and give it a good looking over to detect it true origins. Slimming the stocks way down is a big step in the right direction. It amazing how slimming the little CVA Kentucky helps to hide the fact that the barrel is quite short. So keep your eye peeled at yard sales, pawn shops, and estate sales.

  Hungry Horse

[jerrywh]

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/hearings/20061004/imco/genco_en.pdf

[bones92]

With regards to the proof marks, I believe that the 'PN' represents the year that the barrel was made. My Spanish year proof codes for years of manufacture only go to 2006 and those are Z2.....

PN is Pulvo Negro... aka, black powder proof.  The date will be two letters inside a rectangle, or in the case of early production, Roman numerals.

[bones92]

The video was very enlightening, too.  I've always read that these barrels are not only generally good shooting, but also very well made.

I also think that someone could do quite well for themselves making aftermarket one-piece stocks designed to take the CVA/Traditions/Jukar barrel, lock, triggerguard and buttplate, while giving a better shape (more drop and a longer comb).

Plus, the L&R replacement locks can turn a factory CVA/Traditions flintlock into a quite decent rifle.

[jerrywh]

http://star-firearms.com/firearms/proof.shtml

[Bob Roller]

Given an Example of an original, the Spanish and Italians are/were very good at copying exactly what is in front of them. 
Just look at the other 'replica' ML's and ctg. guns for that matter - some of which are better than the originals and made from much better materials as well.

All this talk of things Spanish made me find a great Bob Dylan song
called "Boots of Spanish Leather" by a group called The Seldom Scene.
Pull it up,it's a great piece of work.

Bob Roller

[Hungry Horse]

Bob;

  One of Dylan's great lesser known songs. I thought I was the only one that remembered it. You never stop surprising me, when it come to eclectic memories from the past.

    Hungry Horse

[JCKelly]

Gaeckle, jerrywh and bones92 thank you for the proof information.

Bob, thank you?? for bringing back a certain heartache of the '60's. I found the Mandolin Orange version the most moving.
Yeah, thanks Bob.