Author Topic: Southern rifle lock placement  (Read 8326 times)

billd

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Southern rifle lock placement
« on: July 21, 2008, 07:29:35 PM »
I'm building one of Dennis's Gillispie rifles. I have a question concerning the lock placement.

I'm using a Chambers Late Ketland Lock and when I line up the centerline of the lock plate with the centerline of the wrist, the pan is tipped forward.  Likewise if I set the pan level the back of the lock plate is low on the wrist. Is this normal for this type of gun?  I don't know if this is caused by the shape of the wrist or the shape of the lock plate.  Which way should I proceed, or should I do a little of each, tip the plate slightly and leave the plate only slightly below center?

This is the first southern gun I've ever built and have never run into this on a PA style gun before. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Bill

Pratt

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Re: Southern rifle lock placement
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2008, 07:46:31 PM »
  How much below center of the wrist with the pan level? a little won't hurt, splitting the difference like you said might be your best choice.
Are you going to use a front lock bolt?  Not sure what barrel you are using, if you had enough room on your side flat to get a vent liner in, you might raise the bolster slightly above center line.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Southern rifle lock placement
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2008, 08:04:08 PM »
You never want the point of the tail (or the center of the tail if it is rounded) at the vertical center of the wrist.  It should be lower.  Say, 2/3rds of the way down from the top....as a general rule.
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billd

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Re: Southern rifle lock placement
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2008, 09:12:11 PM »
Ian,  Thanks and to answer your questions, I am not using a front lock bolt and the barrel is a 1 1/16" breech Rice barrel which will have a liner in it however, I don't have a lot of wood left to move the look up. The guy who did the inletting cut it pretty close.

Stophel,   Is the 2/3 rds down the wrist common for all southern rifles? I spent hours online looking at pictures last night and I found most placed center to slightly low. I didn't find a whole lot of pictures close up enough to see exactly what I was looking for.

Thanks,
Bill

Offline Ken G

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Re: Southern rifle lock placement
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2008, 09:23:45 PM »
Billd,
You may have already found these places if you did a lot of looking.  Maybe they will help some but you will find them centered and some of them low. 
Ken

http://tennesseehogrifle.com/Original_Southern_Page_2.php

http://home.att.net/~t.glazener/wsb/html/view.cgi-photos.html-.html

http://www.iowatelecom.net/~toadhall/southern_album.htm

http://www.americanhistoricservices.com/html/home.html  look at the Bogle rifle in the original section.



« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 09:24:33 PM by Ken Guy »
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billd

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Re: Southern rifle lock placement
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2008, 09:40:11 PM »
Ken, 
Thanks, I was on all those sites except the American Historical one.  And I talked to Dennis and he suggested posting here to get everyones views.

I will be at Dixons this weekend and should see some there. Does anyone know who will be there with southern knowledge I should?

Bill

eagle24

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Re: Southern rifle lock placement
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2008, 10:04:44 PM »
It also would seem to me that the amount of drop in the stock will affect where the lock tail is in relationship to the center line of the wrist.

Offline Ken G

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Re: Southern rifle lock placement
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2008, 10:23:48 PM »
Ian Pratt would be a good start.  I'm not sure who else might be there.  If Jerry Nobles is there I would camp out under his feet. 
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Southern rifle lock placement
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2008, 10:33:52 PM »
Bill,

Though I'm not well versed in Southern rifles in particular, as a general rule, the tail of the lock needs to be below the center of the wrist.  If it is at the center, it looks like it's above center...If it's below center a bit, it looks right.  It's an optical illusion....
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 10:34:17 PM by Stophel »
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Southern rifle lock placement
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2008, 04:23:36 PM »
Quote
Ken,
Thanks, I was on all those sites except the American Historical one.  And I talked to Dennis and he suggested posting here to get everyones views.

I will be at Dixons this weekend and should see some there. Does anyone know who will be there with southern knowledge I should?

Bill
Bill,
I would think LC Rice could shed light on your question but I doubt he will be there since he sold out to his brother Liston. I don't know if Liston is a builder or not. I suspect Jason Schneider (works for Liston) might help. Sorry I couldn't help. I just line the locks up to what I think looks right and go with that. Sometimes they are tilted and other times they aren't. Always suspected the old timers did the same.

I can't think of many southern builders that attend Dixon's.

Oh, check with Guy Montford, guy does some building and also studies southern rifles he might be able to answer your question.
Dennis
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Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Southern rifle lock placement
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2008, 05:23:07 PM »
Bill,

Though I'm not well versed in Southern rifles in particular, as a general rule, the tail of the lock needs to be below the center of the wrist.  If it is at the center, it looks like it's above center...If it's below center a bit, it looks right.  It's an optical illusion....
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Offline G-Man

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Re: Southern rifle lock placement
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2008, 05:28:04 PM »
If you start taking exact measurements on originals you will find they vary, like Ken said, but what matters is what flows for your gun and each gun is different.  And of course, some originals look better than others.  I think they generally look good if the lock is level or tipped back just a tad, but you don't want it tipping forward as this will tend to interrupt the flow of the lines.

One thing I do is lay the stock out on a long sheet of paper, with the barrel in, and do a light, but very close pencil tracing of the profile from the butt to forward of the entry thimble.  Measure the breechplug and mark the location of the face of it on your drawing.  Photocopy your lock and triggers, and make true size cutout patterns.  Mark the location of the sear on the outside of your lock picture so you can then lay the triggers in the right position, and the guard etc.  Lay them out on your pattern in the positions they need to be - this will show you how much wood you have to play with.  You can move the tail of the lock up or down a bit to see how it looks.  Then go in and redraw your lines - the wrist, toe, lock panels etc inside of the original lines until you get the look you want.

The exact center of the wrist won't be determined, even on a precarve, until you get the lock and triggers in - guns are essentially built from this point forward and back. (I'm assuming you have the tang inlet but you also can still do some filing on the top of the wrist for final shaping.) So if you haven't yet, I would not do any more shaping in this area - leave your lock panel areas wide and your toeline where it is - until you get the lock and triggers in.  Hold off on inletting the guard.  Once these are in and set, then go back and tweek the shaping to where you like it - i.e.  you will be taking a little off the top and bottom of the wrist, and shape the height, thickness and shape of the lock panels, to give the flow you want.  Trigger plates sometimes need to be bent, trimmed or filed down in thickness, and there is also usually more wood to remove than it seems at first, on your first gun.  Then inlet your guard after this area is about at its final profile.

One other trick Mel Hankla just told me recently - I know many of the Gillespie rifles used one lockbolt but if you happen to be using two, when you start inletting the lock, you can drill the front lockbolt first, before you inlet the plate.  Then use the front screw as a pivot and move the tail up and down till it gets to the position you want, then mark it and inlet the plate. 

This also allows you to make your sideplate shape flow with the lock as it sits - rather than try to force fit a pre-cut sideplate to your lock/bolt placement - which causes  some contemporary guns you see to have sideplates that look like they are tipped more than they should be. 

Good luck

Guy
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 06:11:13 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Southern rifle lock placement
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2008, 06:51:42 PM »
I would think that the universal design rule of "Form follows function" would prevail. That would mean that the pan location would dictate where the lock plate falls. Any adjustments up or down would be accomplished by pivoting the lock around the vent location (if that makes any sense). I have seen several old rifles that could not be seen as a work of art in any sense of the imagination, built as tools only, and a lot of southern rifles in particular seem to fall into this catagory. That being said, we really don't build these things as tools any more, so architecture is more important to us than it was to the original builders/users, so why not get one of Jim Chambers builders locks and cut the plate to suit your own application.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Southern rifle lock placement
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2008, 06:57:19 PM »
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