Today's safe barrels?

[Skychief]

With all the talk of unsafe barrels and unsafe barrel materials, past and present, here and on other boards, I have a question for this board.

Which manufacturers, past and/or present, should be considered "as safe as can be"?

Appreciate feedback from all, especially any metalurgists, engineers, 'smiths, builders, etc, which should be knowledgeable regarding this.

PT' s welcomed, if need be.

Best regards, Skychief

[Bill Raby]

   I think it is pretty much all a bunch of talk about nothing. There are quite a lot of barrels out there in use from the manufacturers and only a tiny number of them have burst. I would suspect that almost all of them are the result of user error. Manufacturers have a strong interest in making sure that their products don't blow the hands off their customers. It is wise to be suspicious of an unknown barrel, but I would not hesitate to use a barrel from any of the established manufacturers. Metal is always a compromise of different properties. Its like Ford and Chevy. People say that one is great and the other is junk. In reality, they both make good trucks. One good lawsuit can shut down a manufacturer for good. Nobody is going to knowingly put out an unsafe barrel.

[Mike Brooks]

Correctly loaded, all of today's major barrel makers make safe barrels.

[snapper]

The problem we have in the USA is that there is not a standard set for what a barrel must be manufactured to, either by the government or by the industry itself.

As the result of this we have all of these differences in opinions on what is safe or is not safe.

I have 30 years of experience of doing investigation on manufacturers of hazardous materials cargo tanks.  It is my job to make sure that they are built to the USDOT specification for materials used and strength.  The standards for HM tankers have been set by the government and also by the ASME, a industry self regulated standard that has been adopted by the USDOT as a good standard.

What safety standard do you as the public expect for tankers that are transporting poisonous or flammable gases?

Barrels made from 12L14 are obviously not an imminent hazard and are not likely to fail "just because".

It is a fact that there are better steels for strength and safety to use for a ML barrel.

It is also a fact that if you make the decision that you want a barrel made from steel that is better suited for a ML barrel other than 12L14 you can do that.  To my knowledge there is not a barrel made from 12L14 in my gun safes, that is a choice of mine.

I would not let a 12L14 barrel keep me from buying a kit gun like what is offered here on this list for a smaller cal. rifle.  I think that there is a good safety margin for me to consider that.  I would never use a 12L14 barrel for shooting my .45 cal. 540 grain bullets at 1300 fps.

Since there is not a set standard it is up to personal choice and what you are willing to buy and what risk you are willing to accept.  I am willing to pay more for a barrel made from something other than 12L14 steel.

Like I tell my kids, "Life is full of choices, choose wisely.

Fleener

[T*O*F]

I have a dead horse.
Would anyone care to beat it repeatably.

[Mike Brooks]

I have a dead horse.
Would anyone care to beat it repeatably.

I slaughtered that horse last Tuesday, I think it's starting to turn......

[Hungry Horse]

For Pete's sake the originals were made of wrought iron. That is the modern equivilant of aged cheese. Virtually any reasonable steel is going to be an upgrade. Bill Newton built tradegun barrels out of seamless gas pipe, and I haven't heard of any of his guns blowing up. You just have to fight stupidity ever day, and remember to not fill it full of black powder, or use smokeless powder, or forget to seat the ball. This is pretty easy stuff. I tend to fear anyone that is looking for high end ultra modern barrel steel because it makes me wonder what they plan on loading in it.

  Hungry Horse

[conquerordie]

I think Mike said it best, use your smarts, load safely, and enjoy. Lucky for us there is a large variety of barrels out there for us to pick from. I think they are all safe.
Greg

[Timothy88]

In the gun building section of this forum there was a rather lengthy discussion of barrel steels if you are interested in reading it.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=43037.0

[JCKelly]

Just for the heck of it.

I bought a Traditions kit based on two reasons. One, memory of when I examined a piece of old CVA barrel in the met lab. It appeared to be a nice, ductile annealed low carbon steel, with no added sulfur. For those who are fond of tensile strength, I'd not be surprised to find the tensile strength of this barrel lower than the common American muzzle loading barrel steel. That I am more impressed by ductility you may consider just senility, I suppose. Two, that video by Iraqveteran888, showing a Traditions Kentucky eventually blown by use of a couple smokeless grades. The manner in which it blew had meaning to me.

When I got back into black powder shooting about a decade ago I got a couple of Pedersoli guns. I asked what they used for barrels, they said essentially a heat treated, low sulphur carbon steel. Misplaced the exact italian grade number they gave me, something like A40.

I am told that Ed Rayl uses some grade of 8620 for his barrels. Sounds fine to me. Aerospace quality 8620 bar has the wonderful property of being available, available in small quantities from warehouses. One needn't buy 30 tons of the stuff.

I have no idea how accurately any of these shoot. 

I like these barrels because they are all low in sulfur, which means to me they have some amount of ductility across the grain - where it matters.

High ductility also means not such good machineability. For steel   to "machine like butter" the steel mill must make it brittle, so the chips are crumbly and short.

[oldtravler61]

  I'll just keep it simple like Mr. Jewler told me. Never double ball. Never put in anything but black powder(before pyrodex) an last no more powder than double the caliber of your RIFLE. Has worked for over 50 year's. So I'll stick to it....Oldtravler

[Karl Kunkel]

Keep your fingers away from Pete's mouth - he ain't had nothin' to eat for the last thirteen years but prison food, gopher, and a little greasy horse.

[Skychief]

The replies are appreciated all

Mr Kelly, you may or may not remember  but, I bought a Southgate rifle from you years ago.  Just wanted to say that I shot it this afternoon.  I'm very happy with it an  am taking great care of it.

I wondered today about the steel of its barrel.  I wonder if it would be deemed "safe" by those in the know.  In any case, it's done fine to this point with loads in the 40 grain neighborhood.

I also have rifles with Bill Large barrels.  I wonder the same about the material that he built with.

Southgate and Large.......What do you all know of their barrels???

Much appreciated.

Best regards, Skychief

[n stephenson]

Snapper, The last thing we need is the government sticking their nose into muzzle loading any further than it already is. I can already see some "well meaning" beaurocrat  trying to ensure that a barrel blow -up "never happens again"'          NO THANKS                                                 Nathan

[EC121]

Due to the many shots fired there over the years, I would think the Friendship range would be a good place to ask about barrels failing.  Many rifles of unknown quality have been fired there.  With that large number of chances for a barrel failure in one spot the ground should be littered with broken stocks and barrels.  I'll happily continue  shooting my rifles with a reasonable load and properly seated ball.

[JCKelly]

Skychief - I may have no memory but my computer, Hal, still does.

I'm glad you are enjoying that Southgate. I had wanted one since I saw his American Rifleman article in 1952. Cash was not so available then, so I stayed with my Red Ryder. The rifle I sold you in 2011 was just fine but my arms are too short & my left shoulder lacks the strength to hold it.
Yours is No. 507, the Dixie list of serial numbers says it was built in 1959. At that time I believe Southgate was rifling his own barrels using cold-drawn octagonal 1018 steel blanks 48" long,  either direct from the mill or from Dixie.
Others on ALR may wish to comment on this.
I told you it was .41 caliber, perhaps because that was what I was told. I wonder, exactly what caliber did you find it to be?
I have made rifles using .50 cal 7/8" cold drawn 1018 from Pa Keeler. That was before I learned that seamless tubing sometimes has a crack down the bore. Never heard of any of these barrels blowing up, which only means I never heard of it. Well, if yours has hung together this long there probably is no crack in it. That 1018 steel, even cold drawn, has pretty good ductility across the grain.
Yeah, I would have, and still would, shoot it if I could hold it.

I recall that Bill Large was most insulted when Muzzle Blasts published my Oct-Nov-Dec 1985 series on barrels. Never heard of any problems with his barrels, the only one I saw had been ringed near the breech for some reason. Personally, with all respect to the late and legendary Mr. Large, I'd not care to use them.

Searched for my 1981 LaSalle Steel Co. data on STRESSPROOF (their 1144) and LA-LED (their 12L14). Data for both is frightening, considering that some people think they can use them to withstand high-impact loading (an explosion is high-impact).
There is an old article in the Single Shot Rifle magazine about an 1144 barrel failing, I think at an extractor cut in the breech. Not such great fatigue resistance (cracks if loaded thousands of times when there is a notch present).

Enjoy No. 507, Mr. Skychief

[Bob Roller]

The replies are appreciated all

Mr Kelly, you may or may not remember  but, I bought a Southgate rifle from you years ago.  Just wanted to say that I shot it this afternoon.  I'm very happy with it an  am taking great care of it.

I wondered today about the steel of its barrel.  I wonder if it would be deemed "safe" by those in the know.  In any case, it's done fine to this point with loads in the 40 grain neighborhood.

I also have rifles with Bill Large barrels.  I wonder the same about the material that he built with.

Southgate and Large.......What do you all know of their barrels???

Much appreciated.

Best regards, Skychief

I know nothing about the barrels used by Mr,Southgate but worked off and on with
Bill Large for years. He did use 1144 Stressproof for years until he got a bad batch
that wrecked some expensive deep hole drills.He gave me the defective bars and I
used them for lock tumblers with no reported troubles. After that he used a leaded
steel that had an odd name (Tellurium maybe?) For about the last 10 years of his
life he used this material with no blow ups we heard about.There was sadly to say
a drop in his quality and it showed in the finished barrels. Bill and his machinery
were getting worn out and he quit reaming the barrels and simply drilled and
rifled them. This is evident when looking at them,the annular rings of the lands
tell the story. He did make a few barrels from brass and 416 stainless as well.
BILL Large passed away on 23 September 1985 and I got the sad task of writing
his obituary for the NMLRA.

Bob Roller

[Skychief]

That's her Mr. Kelly. . It's actually a 40 caliber.  It's not fussy about loads but really shines with a tightly patched .395.

Speaking of barrels, this rifles barrel is so easy on patches compared to any of my other rifles.  I can shoot super thin patching with slightly undersized balls with no tearing of said patching.  I can't say why, but I have no other rifles like this.

It's a joy to shoot.  It'll shoot inch groups at 60 yards easy enough.  I think it would shoot tighter if it wore finer sights and I had younger eyes.  But, I'll never change out the original sights of this "Tennessee Maid".

Thanks for the information, photo, and reply, Skychief

[Skychief]

Mr. Roller, thanks for your reply and information.  I may have one of his earlier barrels.  It has no J' s in the stamping.  I was hoping that Mr Kelly would give Bills barrels a nod.

The barrel I speak of is the most accurate rifle that I own.  I found it years ago at a small gunshow in Greene county Indiana.  A man named Ingal had built it for over the log matches that were popular then in the Wabash Valley area of Indiana.

If I recall correctly, the 45 caliber is either 7/8" or 1" across the flats.  42".

The rifle has super curly maple and fine double set triggers.  The rifle will chew a ragged hole at 60 yards with the load it likes, monotnously.

Thank you again, Skychief

[wattlebuster]

I dont normally comment on threads discussing barrel steels but my unsolicited thoughts are this. I have been shooting flint an percussion guns since I was a young teen in the mid 70s. I started out shooting 2 old hermit brothers original tenn mt rifles that Im sure was wrought iron barrels then as most on this forum shot T/Cs an lymans an then graduating to customs as soon as I could afford it. In all those yrs I have never ever heard of a barrel blowing AS LONG AS the human error factor didnt creep in. Most I have heard about was by using smokeless which im sure it would be the #1 factor an close behind would be short started. This is a lot of the reason I will not buy a used muzzleloader unless I know the man that has owned it since new. You never know who has shot it 25 times with smokeless or who has double balled it which increases pressure no matter who thinks otherwise. I have quite a few 12L14 barrels made by different makers an I know they are soft barrels but they will not blow up as long as I load them with black powder with normal loads BUT if i throw in some human error either intentional or accidental then it will be wattlebusters fault an not the folks that made the barrel no matter what any bloodthirsty lawyers opinion would be. Some people will do stupid things with muzzleloaders same as with modern guns an no matter what regulation the lawyers try an come up with it all boils down to YOU CANT FIX STUPID so if they are shot with common sense you will be alright an if NOT then there will be blood.

[hanshi]

I dont normally comment on threads discussing barrel steels but my unsolicited thoughts are this. I have been shooting flint an percussion guns since I was a young teen in the mid 70s. I started out shooting 2 old hermit brothers original tenn mt rifles that Im sure was wrought iron barrels then as most on this forum shot T/Cs an lymans an then graduating to customs as soon as I could afford it. In all those yrs I have never ever heard of a barrel blowing AS LONG AS the human error factor didnt creep in. Most I have heard about was by using smokeless which im sure it would be the #1 factor an close behind would be short started. This is a lot of the reason I will not buy a used muzzleloader unless I know the man that has owned it since new. You never know who has shot it 25 times with smokeless or who has double balled it which increases pressure no matter who thinks otherwise. I have quite a few 12L14 barrels made by different makers an I know they are soft barrels but they will not blow up as long as I load them with black powder with normal loads BUT if i throw in some human error either intentional or accidental then it will be wattlebusters fault an not the folks that made the barrel no matter what any bloodthirsty lawyers opinion would be. Some people will do stupid things with muzzleloaders same as with modern guns an no matter what regulation the lawyers try an come up with it all boils down to YOU CANT FIX STUPID so if they are shot with common sense you will be alright an if NOT then there will be blood.

+1     Well, I know nothing about barrel steels and what I do think I know is absolutely WRONG!  It's just that the term "soft steel" sounds funny to me.  I prefer to say, "mild steel, "brittle steel", "tough steel" and "ductile steel".  To me any steel is HARD.  For this reason I rely heavily on the knowledgeable people on this forum.  I don't know anything about the steels "my" barrels are made from.  But be assured that just as wattlebuster said, I know better than to abuse them.  I'm not stupid, just ignorant ("ignernt" in Southern).

[Skychief]

I'm just as ignernt as you two guys above.  And, like you, respect my guns and try my best to do nothing stupid.

Funny thing to me is that some of the guys that seem to know a great deal about this subject, seem to never say "I think X barrel manufacturer, or X type of steel, is the safest for muzzleloading barrels".

Unless I've missed it somewhere.

Best regards, Skychief

[bob in the woods]

I have had some barrels that were what I can only call "soft".  I literally used a scraper on them to get rid of scratches. Others, seemed to have a "casing" or hard outer layer which was a real pain. When installing sights, and attempting to raise the edge of the filed dovetail, I've had it break. Never had that or any other problems with Getz , or FCI barrels.

[wattlebuster]

Guys soft is just a term that I used. I guess in the world of barrels 12L14 would be what I call soft. But I know this ahead of time and am fully aware of what will happen if i do something stupid

[JCKelly]

Funny thing to me is that some of the guys that seem to know a great deal about this subject, seem to never say "I think X barrel manufacturer, or X type of steel, is the safest for muzzleloading barrels".

I might maybe have circled around it a bit. Thing is, if I say use XYZ steel for your barrel then I am liable if it bursts for whatever reason. This is fact, drummed into me most thoroughly when I worked quite some years at a specialty metals supplier, Rolled Alloys. One may "suggest", or say what others have used for similar applications, but it is a very serious NO-NO to Recommend a metal.

So for a black powder muzzle loader I would Suggest using a steel with decent ductility across the grain, and fairly low carbon.

I am not employed by any barrel maker, and am not intimately familiar with what they do in their shop. I do not know the commercial considerations involved in whatever product line they make.

So no, neither I nor any other competent metallurgist will tell you the barrel maker what to use. You might hire a consultant, who may know where of he speaks, or simply have a scrambled brain. I am too old to want to run around the country consulting. Might be nice to chat informally with whatever experienced modern barrel maker had that consulting job, but not for money.

With respect to grades of steel, perhaps you might consider looking at aerospace quality solid bars, in low carbon grades such as 8620 or 4130. These are available from distributors. Availability is one special quality these grades have, not those specific grades 8620 or 4130, but that they are AVAILABLE, and in aerospace quality, from one or more distributors.

I would suggest you might want to avoid any free machining steels such as 1100 or 1200 series, or for that matter even 416 stainless. I might also suggest you avoid barrels made of seamless tubing, as it sometimes has serious long cracks in it, originating at the bore.

That is all. You know what barrels I like, I have posted it here. Go hire a metallurgist in an appropriate legal manner. Doing precision machining on any decent steel will be different than machining 12L14. I am not a machining expert, though I've been of some help where nickel alloys are concerned. Worst problem I handled included the 3/4" bit wandering out of the piece when deep hole drilling (gun drilling) a slightly softer version of what they had used. And the teeth popped off the milling cutter. Actually that was relatively simple. Feeds, speeds and appropriate cutting oils might be topics of conversation. And cutting tool materials & exact geometry of the cutting edges; if steel, how you sharpen them.