Author Topic: Today's safe barrels?  (Read 35419 times)

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2017, 05:21:22 AM »
I'm not so sure, Old Traveler. For one thing there seem to be two separate issues under discussion.

1) The Probability of failure: Is X steel strong enough that it will not fail under normal use (and do we count certain common loading errors as "normal use?")

2) The Mode of failure: If it does fail, does it fail catastrophically or in a safe(r) manner?

Those are two separate questions, at least from an end-user perspective.

Incidentally,I note that the discussion has moved from 12L14 to ANY free machining steel, including the 1137MOD that Green Mountain makes its barrels from. It sounds like Jim McLemore's 4150, while not a free-machining steel, may also be open to criticism.

I'm already convinced that 12L14 isn't a good choice. I do have a GM swamped barrel on hand, though, and I'd like to use it, so the discussion of 1137MOD is intensely interesting to me. Since GM has been touted by others here as an alternative to 12L14 barrels I imagine it would of interest to others as well.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline rtadams

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2017, 03:27:38 AM »
5-12-17

JC Kelly,

I posted the following on 5-10-17:

"How would you rate 1117L stress relieved or 1137L with respect to the best steel for black powder rifle barrels. I am assuming that 8620 or 4130 are acceptable steels to use for black powder as per your previous comments."

Your comments, after the above request, have not been specifically addressed to my understanding. Would you care to make any comments with regard to my questions? 

Best Regards,

Robert T Adams

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4413
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2017, 04:36:04 AM »
 As a serious black powder shooter for fifty some years. Have used Douglas, Getz, green mountain, Coleraine, Carlie Burton barrels to name a few. Never ever had a problem with any of them. Some of these guns we're made in the sixties an before. My point is you load it right an don't over charge. You shouldn't have any worries. Oldtravler

Online bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2017, 05:04:01 AM »
Over the last 30 years I have probably witnessed at least 1/2 dozen ram rods fired down range with no ill effects. Then there were the 3 bulged barrels as a result of shooters firing a short started ball. Many of these incidents occurred while the shooters were firing the Italian "Hawken's "  or CVA rifles  popular at that time.  The barrels must have some degree of ductility in order to produce a "walnut" sized bulge rather than a fracture ?   

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15846
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2017, 08:07:32 AM »
If 12L14 is easy on tooling and easy to machine......just how long of a back log and how much would a barrel cost made of a better steel???? 

Right now $250-300 and 6-12 months is a ballpark figure... couldn't imagine what good barrels would cost...or how much longer the wait would be.   


If better steel is hard to machine how come millions of barrels are made from it every year at a lower cost??    That's a fact I have trouble making sense of. 



Till this site, I had no idea about the subject.   


Like was said, just on this site alone...if we have 3,000 active members we probably have 10,000+ barrels we shoot regularly..just our active members and guns being fired. 

But also like was said, it'd be peace of mind to have something that didn't cause concern. Dovetail a hair too deep...double loads etc are accidents that "happen".   

My biggest concern now is buying a used muzzleloader.   I know what mine have been subjected to.  Buying a used one, you don't know.

$300.00 will get you a modern barrel made of stainless, less for the same barrel in chrome-moly (4140) from PacNor - contoured, but not octagonal.   Does that make you wonder why 12L14 barrels cost $250.00 to $300.00?  Does me.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Mauser06

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2017, 08:36:04 AM »
Exactly my point Daryl.  Millions each year.



That's my only guess. Supply/demand type thing. There are a handful of actual manufacturers for black powder barrels...Rice and Colerain..maybe FCI can go in that group...then A few smaller manufacturers making more custom stuff. Rayle, Hoyt etc


Not a whole lot of suppliers. But not a whole lot of demand either. 


I don't know. Leaves a question though.  Not bashing the barrel manufacturers.  I'm not sure THEY are to blame. But then again, noone has answered WHY they choose the steel they do. 



Anyone know what Hoyt makes barrels from?   Bottom of mine is stamped 1154. I thought maybe that was the steel but I don't think 1154 is a steel...it's a 54cal. I don't know what the 11 stands for..but it's stamped as 1 number.  And also stamped 54cal elsewhere. 

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2017, 03:14:38 PM »
Hoyt uses 12L14 for muzzleloader barrels, though he will use 86L20 (not 8620) if you ask nicely.

The price of muzzleloader barrels is an economy of scale thing, I think. A big manufacturer can have several machines of the same type running at the same time, can make several hundred barrels of the same caliber/contour at a time without having to reset the machine (if they ever do), etc. A small shop running only a dozen of a particular caliber and contour has to spend a much greater percentage of working hours setting up and tearing down tooling, and the lack of space and limited machinery means that bottlenecks are harder to work around.

For example, I think that part of the reluctance to abandon 12L14 is due to the fact that it can be bored several times faster than, say, 4150. Switching over to 4150 would dramatically slow production - an example of a bottleneck I was talking about. The solution, I suspect, would be to increase the number of boring machines, but that requires a significantly greater investment in money and space, something that may not be available.  On top of that, modern barrels are significantly shorter than muzzleloading barrels (half the time to bore).

Then there is the problem of getting certified gunbarrel steel in small quantities...

I don't think that muzzleloading barrels are overpriced, though the wait time is frustrating in some cases. I do think that these problems can be licked IF there is sufficient motivation to do so - Jim McLemore can apparently acquire GBQ 4150, Rayl uses 8620, Burton can make smoothbore barrels out of 8620 if asked (though not rifled octagon barrels), and Rice advertises bullet barrels in 4140.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2017, 03:55:37 PM »
As a serious black powder shooter for fifty some years. Have used Douglas, Getz, green mountain, Coleraine, Carlie Burton barrels to name a few. Never ever had a problem with any of them. Some of these guns we're made in the sixties an before. My point is you load it right an don't over charge. You shouldn't have any worries. Oldtravler

I never heard of a NEW barrel blowing up until the advent of knuckleheads
that want to pour half of a full horn of powder down a gun barrel.
When I was about 15 years old I had a drum blow out of an antique barrel
that left my ears ringing for a while.Youthful ignorance and a bad gun was
the cause of that episode.
At Friendship in 1968,just before the first 130 yard Hawken match there were
two young men with a production muzzle loader of 58 caliber that were firing
180 grains of 3fg and Bill Large and I decided to get away from that pair.
I had a 58 caliber caplock that I shot 65 grains of 3fg in and it won matches.
It was the first barrel Bill made after he got his shop running. He gave it to me
and said he wasn't sure if it was any good or not.
What about the use of BP substitutes in large loads? Has anyone ever tested
barrels of any kind with this stuff to see what holds and what blows??
I don't have any of these powders and maybe some tests can be made.

Bob Roller

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #83 on: May 13, 2017, 07:34:55 PM »
When one gets into a discussion which is best, 8620, 4130 or 4150, one has reached a point where some intelligent barrel experience is needed. There are many technically good choices for a muzzle loading barrel. It does come down to exactly what is actually available. And then, well, gentlemen, what is the best brand of aged whiskey?

I have two rifles with Green Mountain barrels. Although I can't find it on their website, i have heard they use 1137MOD. I do not know what that "MOD" is, but surely it is a modification with less sulfur.  Regular 1137 from some warehouse supply is not so ductile.

Over the last year or so I have revisited the subject of blown barrels, using stuff from the web. Most are illustrations of failed barrels in firearms other than side-lock muzzle loaders. The ones that split are resulfurized steel. They split because the sulfur is present as long strings - hopefully tiny - of manganese sulfide. This manganese sulfide makes the steel easier to machine, also gives it a "grain" somewhat like wood. As a very, very rough analogy, consider cross-cut vs rip saw. So the barrel, including many modern rifle barrels, is not so ductile in the cross-grain direction as it is in the long direction. "Stainless" is a rather general term, sometimes it means "416". This is a re-sulfurized stainless, and even then there is more than one variety of "416".

Sulfur as an addition to improve machinability has been around a lot longer than I have, at least well back into the 1930's or earlier.

As far as 12L14 is concerned. it gets really superb machinability because it has a phosphorus addition. Phosphorus dissolves in the steel, one cannot see it under the microscope. Phosphorus improves machinability because it makes steel Brittle. The chips are nice and crumbly, short. Not them there nasty long curls one gets when machining, say, 1018.

I think, not positive but pretty sure, the steel mills could not even make steel this brittle a steel until World War Two put great demands on productivity. 12L14 is truly a wonderful steel for making a lot of parts quickly. In Ancient Times I recall Black & Decker made drill chucks of the stuff, then case hardened them. Worked in the lab then, and I got a box full of broken parts every Wednesday to examine. I never saw a broken chuck. No doubt there must have been one, considering the interesting things customers did to their tools, but they happened not to send them back to B&D. 12L14 made a great drill chuck but not worth a #@$! for reliably containing an explosion.

Two subjects I'd comment on. Most, including myself from about 1968-198?, have had good luck with our 12L14 barrels. Thing is, all of those lucky barrels were made from bar stock that had no cracks in it. 12L14, however, is subject to cracking when the mill cold draws the hot rolled bar down to the nice perfectly round bar that will fit in a collet. Not often, but sometimes. If one has a cracked bar, well, it may work for quite a while. Or it may not. Especially if the new guy doesn't manage to get the ball all the way down in loading.

Loading errors? Come on now, we all know that firing with a short started ball is more common than one would prefer to admit. And each time, do you really get that ball all the way down on the powder? Does a newbie know how important this is?

Finally, it is NOT a matter of strength. 12L14 has much higher tensile strength than does wrought iron, when nice smooth bars are slowly pulled apart in a tensile test machine.
Not the issue. The steel must be ductile. This is something that late 19th century boiler makers slowly learned, after using this wonderful new, strong stuff called steel, instead of that nasty old weak wrought iron.

Whoops! The "strong" stuff didn't always hold together.

Someone here mentioned Spanish & Italian guns bulging. Yes, they bulge and eventually burst, but they do not shatter. This is because these Europeans are such fantastic machinists that they can actually make a barrel out of low sulfur steel. From what I've seen I think the Italian barrels are stronger (higher tensile strength!!! than the Spanish, but the Spanish barrels I've seen blown sure are ductile. 

I like having ten fingers. I really prefer to have no sulfur addition to my gun barrels, thank you.

There is a very good thread here on shooting Zuoaves. I just got some .562 balls from TOW. Tuesday, weather permitting, I hope to give my slightly dinged up Zoli a try. Perfect bore.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #84 on: May 13, 2017, 11:18:01 PM »
I have personally blown up a Douglas barrel. .50 cal X 1" straight, flint gun. No fault of the material the barrel was made of, my fault for improper loading. You can't be a moron and play with guns..... :o
 I used to shoot alot of skeet with damascus barreled SXS's at a local trap/skeet club every Wednesday night. I loaded my own shells with either BP or low pressure smokeless. The "modern" gun shooters either biatched about the smoke or freaked over using smokless in damascus barrels.....we generally were segregated to our own field and the score keeper was warned not to stand too close as our guns were "DANGEROUS".
 Anyway, I saw a "Modern" over under blow on two consecutive Wednesday nights. Amazingly, nobody was hurt either time but both guns blew at the breech and pretty well disintegrated. Here again, improper loading (double powder using a progressive machine). Here again, you can't play with guns and be a moron.
 What have I learned? It really doesn't matter what you make a barrel out of if you let a moron load it incorrectly...... :P This fact alone negates all the scientific tests and formulas and makes all of the types of barrel steels irrelevant to a certain point.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19540
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #85 on: May 13, 2017, 11:53:13 PM »
The arguments for barrel quality steel are compelling but there's no destructive testing data at all.  I'd like to see some chromoly 4140 barrels short started and fired with normal black powder loads preferably with the front lug dovetail right behind where the short started leaves the ball.  Head to head with 12L14.  We've all seen modern barrels blown because of slipping and getting some mud or even snow in the barrel.  Usually look like banana peels.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15846
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #86 on: May 14, 2017, 04:25:41 AM »
What were TC Hawkins barrels in 15/16", .50's made from in the 70's - anyone know?
They were bulging barrels when short started- always behind the ball - horrific bulge - way behind the sight dovetail.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Online bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2017, 04:30:41 AM »
Hi Daryl...That's what I was referring to. The Italian Hawken's were doing the same thing when short started. Magnificent bulge [walnut] but the barrels held. The only split I saw was a short started ball that coincided with the dovetail .

Offline rtadams

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2017, 04:40:24 AM »
5-13-17

Elnathan,

What are the (certified gun barrel steel) AISI number(s) that you are referring too for black powder muzzle loading rifle barrels as per your previous post.

"Then there is the problem of getting certified gunbarrel steel in small quantities"

Who, what agency, where, when: provided or stated the (certified gun barrel steel) specification(s) for black powder?

Note: All comments from all members of this forum are also welcomed, since we all have a vested interest in the safety of the use, manufacturing, repair etc. of black powder muzzleloading rifle barrels but not limited too just black powder rifle barrels, but all muzzleloading black powder barrels.

Best Regards,

Robert T Adams

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2017, 06:51:33 AM »
Rtadams,

The mills themselves certify it as gun barrel quality, I believe. From what I have read this typically means that they take extra precautions to ensure that the alloy elements are to spec and are evenly distributed throughout, magnafluxed or otherwise inspect the bars for flaws, and may adjust the mixtures slightly to better suit its intended purpose. Unfortunately, mills tend, or at least have been in the past, to be rather reluctant to explain what exactly the difference between ordinary and GBQ steel.

The problem is that all this has to be done by the furnace-full, which means that the mills sell it by the furnace-full. This requires an investment that is beyond the means of a lot of these small operations. One barrel maker I talked to told me that getting a load of GBQ 1137MOD would take his entire life's savings, and I assume the amount he would end up with would be far in excess of his needs.

Now, IIRC, Bob Roller recently indicated that he got a comparatively small amount of of high-end steel, so the situation may be improving.  I'm not in the market for GBQ bars, just a couple barrels, so I haven't looked into that.

I'm neither a barrel maker nor a steel guy in any capacity (well, I'm a hobbyist blacksmith, but that hardly counts) - what I know is what I've picked up from reading Mr. Kelly's articles, stuff posted on this forum and elsewhere, and talking to a bunch of different barrel makers.

http://baronespecialtysteel.com/?page_id=141
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #90 on: May 14, 2017, 03:57:28 PM »
Rtadams,

The mills themselves certify it as gun barrel quality, I believe. From what I have read this typically means that they take extra precautions to ensure that the alloy elements are to spec and are evenly distributed throughout, magnafluxed or otherwise inspect the bars for flaws, and may adjust the mixtures slightly to better suit its intended purpose. Unfortunately, mills tend, or at least have been in the past, to be rather reluctant to explain what exactly the difference between ordinary and GBQ steel.

The problem is that all this has to be done by the furnace-full, which means that the mills sell it by the furnace-full. This requires an investment that is beyond the means of a lot of these small operations. One barrel maker I talked to told me that getting a load of GBQ 1137MOD would take his entire life's savings, and I assume the amount he would end up with would be far in excess of his needs.

Now, IIRC, Bob Roller recently indicated that he got a comparatively small amount of of high-end steel, so the situation may be improving.  I'm not in the market for GBQ bars, just a couple barrels, so I haven't looked into that.

I'm neither a barrel maker nor a steel guy in any capacity (well, I'm a hobbyist blacksmith, but that hardly counts) - what I know is what I've picked up from reading Mr. Kelly's articles, stuff posted on this forum and elsewhere, and talking to a bunch of different barrel makers.

http://baronespecialtysteel.com/?page_id=141

There was a time not so far gone that small orders were unwelcome and I experienced rude answers from
arrogant salesmen. Now the buyer is in most cases the boss. The companies are looking to get this stuff off the racks and out
to whoever. Go on line and type in "Small quantity steel sellers" and there will be a number of them uncovered.

Bob Roller

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4413
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #91 on: May 14, 2017, 04:10:01 PM »
 Maybe someday Mike we will see a stamp I.P.S. on gun barrel steel. (Idiot proofed steel ) an we will all feel warm an fuzzy. Oldtravler

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2017, 05:04:24 PM »
I think what has taken five or six pages to express here is basically you can't fix stupid. And if you do change the industry to protect the nitwits, they will simply ratchet up the stupid to counteract your new safer product.
 I have examined several bulged, or ruptured, barrels in my time, and in spite of every one of the owner saying otherwise, I am inclined to put the blame on the shooter rather than the product.

  Hungry Horse

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4413
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #93 on: May 14, 2017, 05:58:45 PM »
Bingo!!!!  So right you are Horse. You can't fix STUPID!!!   Oldtravler

Offline Joe S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
  • the other Joe S.
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #94 on: May 14, 2017, 06:04:18 PM »
Look around you everything in society has been idiot proofed to some extent or atleast tried to be.Big reason why stuff cost a lot more as well.If it weren't there would be a lot less people around,some folks will never stop trying to make a liar out of Darwin though,even if it kills them ;)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 06:05:58 PM by Joe S. »

Offline wattlebuster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2088
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #95 on: May 14, 2017, 07:08:32 PM »
No matter what steel you make barrels from there will be a certain amount of idiots thats gonna do idiot things. It cant be stopped. It cant be regulated. It cant be outlawed.  Loaded as they should be their fine. Do something that shouldnt be an your gonna have problems. Seems kinda a no brainer to me but then again what does a dumb redneck know :)
Nothing beats the feel of a handmade southern iron mounted flintlock on a cold frosty morning

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #96 on: May 14, 2017, 07:20:45 PM »
I would like to agree that bulged or ruptured is the shooter's fault.

Human error will always be present in loading muzzle loaders. Even when the shooter knows better he is, unfortunately, still a human being. It is my understanding that all humans tend to make errors now & again (on average, how many errors is even somewhat predictable, per a study done after Three Mile Island)

Can't stop people from making errors, also can't fix stupid. I personally still do not want to hear of stupid, careless people loosing body parts to what they thought was going to be a fun hobby.

A SHATTERED BARREL IS ANOTHER MATTER.
Failure may initiate because of -
A flaw in the steel (possible in metal bars in general)
A stress raiser which even professional designers of machinery seem to forget about now & again
And certainly human error, such as an air gap between powder and ball, or the intense ignorance
  of using smokeless

Given one of these errors, a barrel of ductile steel will bulge (pocketbook problem only) or burst (anything from no injury to catastrophic, to shooter). 

Gentlemen, these tubes really are meant to contain a violent explosion.
Bad things do happen for any manner of unexpected reasons.
Unexpected.
If you expected them they'd not happen.

Responsible engineering practice is that where human life & limb is concerned (petrochem guys call it "Lethal Service") extra care must be taken in design, materials selection, and manufacture.
This is actually true in the real engineering world, with the usual human errors thrown in.

It is not true in a few segments of the firearms industry, for reasons up to useless speculation.


Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #97 on: May 14, 2017, 07:41:43 PM »
No matter what steel you make barrels from there will be a certain amount of idiots thats gonna do idiot things. It cant be stopped. It cant be regulated. It cant be outlawed.  Loaded as they should be their fine. Do something that shouldnt be an your gonna have problems. Seems kinda a no brainer to me but then again what does a dumb redneck know :)

An OLD Army Sergeant once told me that terminal stupidity is when
the pin is thrown and the grenade held close.NO real fix for it until the
grenade goes off.

Bob Roller

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #98 on: May 14, 2017, 07:46:55 PM »
Forgot to emphasis

When a barrel SHATTERS the effect on flesh is similar to Mr. Roller's grenade

Offline Skychief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Today's safe barrels?
« Reply #99 on: May 14, 2017, 11:03:48 PM »
Wouldn't it be GREAT to know the percentage of barrels that have shattered when being used with black powder/muzzleloaders?

We will never KNOW.  Anybody want to hazard a guesstimate? 

.000002%?  Who knows?

Best regards, Skychief

PS, I sincerely wish we had a bona fide percentage.  That would be most telling.