What exactly do I have?

[New Jersey Devil]

Recently acquired a couple of flintlocks and while I've shot rifles since I was 8 years old, I have zero experience in the muzzleloader world, but looking to learn.

Hoping perhaps someone might know who the maker is of this rifle from my pics, or anything else you can tell me about it would be appreciated.  Features fish & moon motif, and the trigger-guard and stock have a nice star. Doesn't appear (though I'm not qualified to say) to be very old, as there are barely any scratches on it, so I imagine it wasnt shot much at all, though the leather seems petrified it's so hard, and the patch box has a spare flint that's wedged in so tight I will probably need a screwdriver to get it out.  As a fiddle player, I'm 100% sure it's maple, so I've got that down, lol.

 The top of the barrel says S.Allen, but there's a D J on the barrel as well.  I've been reading a book on Colonial American rifles in an attempt to learn what I can, and apparently there was a Silas Allen of MA who was a very famous maker, so I'm wondering if the maker or this rifle's initials are DJ, and he made it in the style of or a tribute to S.Allen?  That's my uninformed WAG (Wild Ass Guess) anyway.  Any help would be appreciated, and I will (probably poorly) attempt to answer any questions.  Thanks, NJD.













my photos upload

[rich pierce]

So, you have a creative build from the 1970s-1980s.  A mix of different styles and parts.  I think that is an L&R Durs Egg lock which became available in the mid 1970s.  It looks solidly built and hopefully is a good shooter.

It's probably not a tribute to a Silas Allen.  More likely that is the maker's signature.

[Bob Roller]

So, you have a creative build from the 1970s-1980s.  A mix of different styles and parts.  I think that is an L&R Durs Egg lock which became available in the mid 1970s.  It looks solidly built and hopefully is a good shooter.

It's probably not a tribute to a Silas Allen.  More likely that is the maker's signature.

The lock is an L&R Durs Egg.The rest is ?

Bob Roller

[t.caster]

You have a conglomerate rifle from the 1970s. Not that there's anything wrong with that! Someone's Fantasy Rifle!

[New Jersey Devil]

So, you have a creative build from the 1970s-1980s.  A mix of different styles and parts. I think that is an L&R Durs Egg lock which became available in the mid 1970s.  It looks solidly built and hopefully is a good shooter.

Do you mean there are aspects of the rifle that look like different time periods as well as different geographic areas merged together?

[Hungry Horse]

This is the kinda like when you take the puppy your kid was given out in front of the grocery store to the veteranarian, and ask what breed it is. Back in the fifties through the eighties, there were a ton of these built. They range from mildly off, to wow we really needed drug testing a lot earlier than we thought. The most out character of the parts appear to be the Hawken triggerguard, and the nosecap. If those parts were changed, the rest of it aren't too bad. And, the workmanship is pretty good. I hope you didn't pay a small fortune for it. The lock,and triggers, are good. Hopefully the barrel is of good quality, and in good shape. It could be a real shooter.

  Hungry Horse

[New Jersey Devil]

The most out character of the parts appear to be the Hawken triggerguard, and the nosecap. If those parts were changed, the rest of it aren't too bad. And, the workmanship is pretty good. I hope you didn't pay a small fortune for it. The lock,and triggers, are good. Hopefully the barrel is of good quality, and in good shape. It could be a real shooter.

I guess the question is, given those are fairly cheap parts, if I swapped them out would it be reasonably historically true?  If not, it's really no big deal, I bought these rifles to learn with, make novice mistakes with that I wouldn't want to make with a very expensive rifle, and to be able to extend my hunting season a bit with muzzleloader season.  To answer your question, I paid $715 each for the two rifles, figuring I probably couldn't buy one much cheaper, as well as the fact that I sadly possess zero carpentry skills. Hopefully I didnt do too bad, but if so, live and learn (or stick to milsup which I do understand, lol) I guess.

[hanshi]

$715 for each one sounds high to me but I am not knowledgeable concerning flintlock values; maybe you did much better than I thought.  At any rate, what you have are very nicely built, though not masterfully, solid rifles that are meant to be shot.  I'm not sure that selling them in part or entirety will get all your money back; that should not necessarily be a problem.  They both look very nice and will serve well on the target range and in the bush while chasing game.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Are those pictures all of the same rifle?  You said you bought two...

It would be a simple task to polish up a replacement guard...TOW has a great selection shown full sized in their catalogue.  You might find one that is more suited to the architecture of the rifle...perhaps something North East Coast, New England, and into the percussion era...maybe something with a spur on the bow.

You can't buy the parts for a rifle for $715....you did just fine.  Some say you can make a $400 rifle out of $800 worth of parts, but this is not one of those.

[Steve-In]

So you bought the rifles now get them out and shoot them.  Don't worry about what you paid for them, have fun.  Take them out and shoot them and learn about running a flintlock.  Post pics of the other rifle too.
I would not mess with changing any parts out, just leave them the way they are.  I do not see any value in doing that. 
Reach out to ALR members in your area for some help on where getting supplies and maybe some assistance in shooting your rifles.

A really fancy Silas Allen rifle.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=270.0

Several different rifles by makers.  This would cost $$$ to buy books showing all of these.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=270.0

[Mike Brooks]

I wouldn't change anything. Just go shoot and enjoy. Price of parts to build a gun these days is $650-$1000 or more  for the parts alone....and you still have to build it too!

[Dennis Glazener]

You did fine on the purchase. That's a good rifle for the money and it will serve you well.
Dennis

[New Jersey Devil]

You can't buy the parts for a rifle for $715....you did just fine. Some say you can make a $400 rifle out of $800 worth of parts, but this is not one of those.

Well that's good to hear.

 Especially since I learned after looking over and handling the other (2nd) rifle today that the lock is not operable (Grrrrr).  It will not hold at half-cock, but rather  will hold on full-cock, but the trigger will not fire the rifle once it's at full-cock.   I took it to someone who knows a lot about these and he said the problem is with the fly, either it's so dirty it wont move, slightly rusted immobile, or broken.  Apparently it will likely take a good cleaning, which may run $35 to $50 he said, or worse the lock will need to be taken apart and a new fly installed, which he said for be more expensive.   I'll need to find someone to do the work, but hopefully with the cost of repair + $715 I wont take too much of a beating.

[New Jersey Devil]

A really fancy Silas Allen rifle.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=270.0

Whoa.... that guy had some serious talent.

[New Jersey Devil]

Post pics of the other rifle too. I would not mess with changing any parts out, just leave them the way they are.  I do not see any value in doing that.   

Sure; here you go....    Is it another Frankenflintlock?   


















Turns out they're both .40 cal.

[Darkhorse]

That second rifle looks to be a southern mountain rifle of some sort. I would guess the fly is either missing or broken. Simple fix. From the amount of rust on the lock it doesn't look well cared for. The inside might be worse. What I would be worried about is the condition of the bore. It could be rusted beyond use. Too bad, the rifle looks well built.
One thing you might try; The adjustment screw between the triggers looks like it's screwed in pretty deep, maybe keeping the lock from going into full cock. You could try backing it out a few turns and see if that helps.

[Mike Brooks]

The second gun is a far better gun.

[Hungry Horse]

This is actually a pretty nice gun. Other than what appears to be brass screws on the furniture, it pretty much good to go.
  Man, I just agreed with Brooks, this day is shot. I think I'll put a splash of rye in my morning coffee, and call it a day. And, it's only 6:30 a.m.

  Hungry Horse

[EC121]

Lock operation is pretty straightforward.  Before you pay someone.  Make it an educational experience.  Take the lock out and spray it with a spray lube or Break Free to clear the rust.  I like G96, but there are others.  See if all the parts are moving and the notches are not chipped.  Look for wood hitting the sear bar or trigger bar.  On a gun this old it may just be wood shrinkage.

[Mike Brooks]

Is it possible that is a Bob Roller lock on the second one? I have a Roller lock here with the same cock on it.

[Steve-In]

The second rifle is not all that bad. 
If you plan to mess with flintlocks you should learn about the lock it self.
A quick search on Youtube brought several videos on lock disassembly.  Watch a few before attempting taking apart your lock.  This one seems to give you a few pointers.  The fly is shown at about the 8:15 point.  I think it is called a fly because when ever I take apart a lock it seems to fly somewhere in my shop so be careful.

Some pictures of the inside of that lock may help.  Good quality details are best so any glaring faults can be seen.  Is there a name or markings inside that lock?
.40 cals are popular with target shooters because of the relatively low recoil and typical good accuracy over a range of powder charges.  Try a .395 round ball, .018 patching over 40 grains of 3f black to start with.  You can prime and load with 3f.

[New Jersey Devil]

From the amount of rust on the lock it doesn't look well cared for. The inside might be worse. What I would be worried about is the condition of the bore. It could be rusted beyond use. Too bad, the rifle looks well built.

It was sad to see.  I take very good care of my weapons, so to see any rust is a no-no to  me.  I took a bore light and can see down the first 4 or 5 inches and it actually looks fine.  The guy I saw yesterday had a cool little drop-in borelight that I had never seen and dropped it into the first one, and that barrel was pristine.  Wish I thought to drop it down this one too, but I'm encouraged it should be okay given what I can see of the first bit from the muzzle end.  I'll run some patches down it today, and eventually I'll pick up one of those little drop-in gizmos from somewhere and check it out.

Take the lock out and spray it with a spray lube or Break Free to clear the rust. I like G96, but there are others.  See if all the parts are moving and the notches are not chipped. 

I'll give that a whirl.  As I mentioned, I know nothing about these locks, but while it wouldnt hold in half-cock it did hold at full-cock (it moves right past half-cock like there's no such thing as half-cock).  Another peculiarity that I have no explanation for is that when in full-cock you cant pull the trigger back to fire the gun, but if you gently pushed the trigger FORWARD from behind (i.e. the wrong way) when in full-cock then it drops to fire.  Huh?

[New Jersey Devil]

The second gun is a far better gun.

The second rifle is not all that bad.   

This is actually a pretty nice gun. Other than what appears to be brass screws on the furniture, it pretty much good to go.

So for educational purposes, what makes the 2nd rifle better, is it the fact it's full-stock versus half-stock or is it more historically correct or build quality?  Trying to learn what to look for (and not look for).   Thanks for all the help thus far to all, definitely learning a bit.

[New Jersey Devil]

Is there a name or markings inside that lock?

 

I dont believe so, but it's pretty lightly rusty all over so it might well be obscured if so.  Are they normally marked?  The good news is the rust is the surface sort that appears like it will come right off, almost like a very light orange dust, rather than the long-term type rust that would result in serious pitting.

.40 cals are popular with target shooters because of the relatively low recoil and typical good accuracy over a range of powder charges.  Try a .395 round ball, .018 patching over 40 grains of 3f black to start with.  You can prime and load with 3f.

I was sold 1lb of 3F Goex powder & a small bottle of 4F priming powder, with .389 round balls and .010 patching yesterday.  I was hoping to get out today to give this all a whirl,  but it's drizzling here so that's a no-go.  Looking forward to learning though!

[EC121]

You don't really need to disassemble the lock to check it out.  Remove it and give the internals a scrub with some oil and an old toothbrush or something.    Then do a visual inspection to see if everything moves.  The lock only has about 5 moving parts.  Which trigger are you pushing forward?  The back trigger should fire it if pushed forward.  Pushing the front trigger forward lowers the trigger bar, and it shouldn't do anything.