What exactly do I have?

[Marcruger]

".....This is NOT a complex mechanism but caution is still needed for the first timer.
If you can change the brakes on you car then a lock will present no problems and if you can't get the brakes to work, install
a very loud horn."

I got a big smile out of Bob's comment.  It is like hearing Enzo Ferrari saying, "No problem.  It is just a four-cam Colombo V-12.  Nothing could be simpler!"   

Easy for the acknowledged lock MASTER to say.   Harder for someone with no talent like me.   

Thank you for the smile Bob.  Best wishes,   Marc

[Bob Roller]

".....This is NOT a complex mechanism but caution is still needed for the first timer.
If you can change the brakes on you car then a lock will present no problems and if you can't get the brakes to work, install
a very loud horn."

I got a big smile out of Bob's comment.  It is like hearing Enzo Ferrari saying, "No problem.  It is just a four-cam Colombo V-12.  Nothing could be simpler!"   

Easy for the acknowledged lock MASTER to say.   Harder for someone with no talent like me.   

Thank you for the smile Bob.  Best wishes,   Marc

Marc,
The first engine I ever laid a wrench on was a Duesenberg "J' with twin cams in the head
and 4 valves per cylinder. It was the beginning of an interest that started when I was 16 and continues until this day.
Mechanics were intimidated by the size of that beautiful assembly but the thing IS simple if looked at closely.
Of interest is the fact that the Duesenberg is the only car engineered in the late 1920's that can run with traffic
on today's Interstates. With a 3 to 1 rear axle ratio and the engine timed,ignition and cams,it can hit a bit over 100
in second gear and top 130 in high.A  magnificent relic of a day long passed and hopefully will NEVER be repeated.
I'm glad my sill remark about brakes and a horn made you smile.Laughter is the oil that makes the engine of life run
better.

Bob Roller

[gizamo]

Bob...

You ever come up to Maine I will personally give you a tour of the greatest Packard and Duesenberg collection in the Country.

Steve

[Bob Roller]

Bob...

You ever come up to Maine I will personally give you a tour of the greatest Packard and Duesenberg collection in the Country.

Steve

Who owns that collection . I have all the Ray Wolfe notes on the Duesenberg from 101 to 588
which is all inclusive.Is this the Bahre collection? I recall seeing him at Auburn with an elegant
SJ.I have owned 5 Packards beginning with a 1935 Convertible with wire wheel and a "rumble seat".
Thanks for the note.

Bob Roller

[gizamo]

Yes...the Bahre collection. I work for Bob.

[New Jersey Devil]

Brief update....

So I soaked the lock for 24 hours in an oil (I used 3-IN-ONE Fast-Acting Penetrant) for 24 hours like Bob Roller suggested, although I did not take it apart, and I took it out tonight and scrubbed a little more with a toothbrush.  Didnt seem to do anything at first, so I decided to just work the cock...back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.....and then all of a sudden it held in half-cock, which it had not done before.  I released it and tried again, and it didnt work, so I worked it again, back and forth, back and forth, etc... and it held again.   I was able to repeat this about 10 times in a row where it held both half-cock and full cock just fine, and then....oddly.... it held half-cock but wouldn't properly get into full-cock.  So I released it, worked it some more, and then it worked about 7 or 8 times perfectly before not achieving full cock again.   So I put it back in the oil as I'm hoping that perhaps (and this might be wishful thinking) there's nothing wrong with it and it just needs time to eat away at all the fouling and filth that built up while sitting dormant for god only knows how many years since it's last been fired.  I thought about putting it back in the oil at full-cock figuring that might slightly expose a bit different surface area, but I wasnt sure if it's good for the spring to leave a lock in full-cock for 24 hours.

[Bob Roller]

Brief update....

So I soaked the lock for 24 hours in an oil (I used 3-IN-ONE Fast-Acting Penetrant) for 24 hours like Bob Roller suggested, although I did not take it apart, and I took it out tonight and scrubbed a little more with a toothbrush.  Didnt seem to do anything at first, so I decided to just work the cock...back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.....and then all of a sudden it held in half-cock, which it had not done before.  I released it and tried again, and it didnt work, so I worked it again, back and forth, back and forth, etc... and it held again.   I was able to repeat this about 10 times in a row where it held both half-cock and full cock just fine, and then....oddly.... it held half-cock but wouldn't properly get into full-cock.  So I released it, worked it some more, and then it worked about 7 or 8 times perfectly before not achieving full cock again.   So I put it back in the oil as I'm hoping that perhaps (and this might be wishful thinking) there's nothing wrong with it and it just needs time to eat away at all the fouling and filth that built up while sitting dormant for god only knows how many years since it's last been fired.  I thought about putting it back in the oil at full-cock figuring that might slightly expose a bit different surface area, but I wasnt sure if it's good for the spring to leave a lock in full-cock for 24 hours.

Take it apart and be careful not to drop the fly.Scrub the rest with a hard bristle tooth brush or a
small fine brush with steel or brass bristles.
No need to leave it cocked fro 24 hours and the spring may not be up to the strain.I have tested
my new ones by leaving one cocked in a freezer for 24 hours and it was fine but I had to take it
apart when it thawed out due to condensation and then dried it out.

Bob Roller

[New Jersey Devil]

^Thanks for the advice.  I took the lock out of the oil tonight after another 24 hours, scrubbed it yet again, wiped it down, and it seems to be working fine now.  I only tested it 12 times, but it functioned fine 12 times out of 12 and seems to "want" to engage in both half-cock and full-cock.  I'll monitor some more and test it some more, but I think it's fine now.

Next up, anyone have ideas for the best cleaning agent for the wood interior that the lock sets in?  It's disgusting  (pics below).

I wiped my each finger of a hand though and all fingertips came out black, and you can actually feel a slight puddy-like black sludge from the fouling.  I dont know how many shooting sessions one would have to go through without cleaning it to get it like this, but I'm pretty certain whoever owned this rifle didn't take care of it.    I want to clean it up before returning the lock, and then I'll give the rifle a go on the home range.

[Martin S.]

I am sure others will chime in, but I would start with a box of Q-tips to try to remove the crud down to bare wood.

When you get down to bare wood, use some boiled linseed oil or maybe Tru-oil to put some oil back in the wood.  Put the oil on a q-tip so you don't use too much.

It looks like you might need a new vent liner as well.  Bob Roller can tell you more about how to get that done.

If it were my rifle, I would take it to someone that specialized in black powder fire arms and have them inspect the bore for safety.

It looks like it was rode hard and put up wet without being cleaned.

Use some Break Free CLP on the barrel to get the rust off.  Maybe a little 2000 grit wet dry sand paper, from your local auto parts shop.

Start with the qtips to remove the sludge, then wait for more advice from those who will know more than I.

I would never let one of my rifles get anywhere close to this condition.  No wonder the lock wouldn't work.

[Bob Roller]

I am sure others will chime in, but I would start with a box of Q-tips to try to remove the crud down to bare wood.

When you get down to bare wood, use some boiled linseed oil or maybe Tru-oil to put some oil back in the wood.  Put the oil on a q-tip so you don't use too much.

It looks like you might need a new vent liner as well.  Bob Roller can tell you more about how to get that done.

If it were my rifle, I would take it to someone that specialized in black powder fire arms and have them inspect the bore for safety.

It looks like it was rode hard and put up wet without being cleaned.

Use some Break Free CLP on the barrel to get the rust off.  Maybe a little 2000 grit wet dry sand paper, from your local auto parts shop.

Start with the qtips to remove the sludge, then wait for more advice from those who will know more than I.

I would never let one of my rifles get anywhere close to this condition.  No wonder the lock wouldn't work.

This LOOKS like a vent liner.Jim Chambers is the expert on these so give him a shout and get
his advice.

Bob Roller

[retired fella]

Judging from the looks of that vent liner I wouldn't be surprised if the breech area inside is in the same shape.

[New Jersey Devil]

Judging from the looks of that vent liner I wouldn't be surprised if the breech area inside is in the same shape.

I haven't unscrewed the barrel from the stock and separated them yet to check the breech, but I imagine it will be filthy as you suggest.    The muzzle end actually looks fine from what I can see with my bore light, but that's only the last 4 inches.  The muzzleloader shop keeper had a nifty little pill-sized light I saw him dropping down flintlock barrels.  I need to get one, very clever, I'm pretty sure it's one of those lights for fishing bobbers but it would be great to have in your pocket at gun shows.

[rich pierce]

It looks like the lock bolster does not fit tight against the barrel and powder has gotten in there and burned.  This is dangerous.  If enough powder gets in there and is ignited, it can explode and blow up the stock right above your trigger hand.

The vent liner is coned on the outside.  Not the best design.  To remove or replace it one could drill it out partially then use an EZ Out.  After soaking in penetrating oil.

[New Jersey Devil]

It looks like the lock bolster does not fit tight against the barrel and powder has gotten in there and burned.  This is dangerous.  If enough powder gets in there and is ignited, it can explode and blow up the stock right above your trigger hand.

Ugh....  I guess another trip to the muzzleloader shop is in store after I get this cleaned up.  I assume you mean the spot I pointed to in the below pic.  If so, what's the remedy for that, a little epozy to fill the gap?

[Martin S.]

Your red arrow is pointing to the hole where the arm of the sear engages the trigger.  There will be a long "pin" that sticks out from the sear which goes in that hole.

This hole is normal, DO NOT FILL IT IN OR YOUR LOCK WILL NOT WORK.

The previous poster is saying that you might have a space between the pan and the barrel.  The fit should be tight there, to prevent the powder from your pan falling into the lock mortise.

This link has a good parts diagram for a flintlock:

http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/muskets.htm

[rich pierce]

All that black beneath the barrel looks like charred wood.  If not, don't worry.  If you have a gap you can shim it with something in a pinch.

[Ky-Flinter]

It looks like the lock bolster does not fit tight against the barrel and powder has gotten in there and burned.  This is dangerous.  If enough powder gets in there and is ignited, it can explode and blow up the stock right above your trigger hand.

I think the lock bolster is making at least some contact with the barrel.  The line of rust and crud seems to follow the outline of the pan and bolster, and is relatively clean below the vent.  From what I can see, the line of wood below the barrel, just above the mortise for the main spring doesn't appear to be burned.  The black could be oil, finish, crud, or.... burnt.  The accumulated crud in the lock mortise could be keeping the lock from settling completely into the mortise.

To clean out the mortise, I would use a small flat blade screwdriver, held vertically to scrape most of the crud off, followed by a toothbrush.  Be sure to get down into the corners.  I wouldn't use any sort of liquid cleaner that would soak into the wood.

Once you get all the crud out of the mortise, check the fit between the lock and barrel.  It should be tight.

-Ron

[Ky-Flinter]

All that black beneath the barrel looks like charred wood.  If not, don't worry.  If you have a gap you can shim it with something in a pinch.

or inlet the lock a little deeper.  Shouldn't take much.

-Ron

[Bob Roller]

Bob...

You ever come up to Maine I will personally give you a tour of the greatest Packard and Duesenberg collection in the Country.

Steve

Steve,
If possible take a look at the Duesenbergs and see if there is a Bohman&Schwartz modified Murphy
Convertible coupe with engine J572 Supercharged.I saw this one many years ago as an unrestored
car. The engine came out of a "modernized" "J" that was a B&S complete custom bodied car that was
owned for years by a man named Jerry Gebby in Ohio.

Bob Roller

[New Jersey Devil]

So I was on vacation in Colorado for a few weeks, and then it was month-end close (I'm a finance dork), hence my late reply.

I finally got around to cleaning the chamber, and there's good news and there's (potentially, but I'm not sure) bad news.

The good news is that all that horrible black tar dirty stuff cleaned out really nice with some elbow grease and just a very tiny smidge of oil, as well as the fact that it confirms that the inside isnt "burned", it was just dirty.



The (potential though I'm not sure) bad news is that I think there might be a crack in the barrel?  There seems to be a thin line running down the barrel that I tried to capture in the pictures.  Is this a crack?   Other than this, after spending a poopload of time cleaning this rifle from soup to nuts, I can report that the lockup is quite tight when the lock is returned to the rifle.

[Smoketown]

Pull the barrel from the stock and then photograph it.   

Dye penetrant test kits work well for "surface breaking discontinuities" and are available at most welding supply stores.   

A good old engine rebuild / hot-rod shop should have a 'mag yoke' and powder to "Magnaflux" it.  (It might cost a couple of six-packs though.)   

Cheers,
Smoketown

[okawbow]

That last picture looks almost like someone added a piece of metal to the bottom of the barrel. Maybe the ramrod drill broke into the barrel channel and they filled it with metal instead of wood?

[Keb]

That last picture looks almost like someone added a piece of metal to the bottom of the barrel. Maybe the ramrod drill broke into the barrel channel and they filled it with metal instead of wood?

I'd say that was clearance ground or filed in the barrel for the main spring.

[New Jersey Devil]

I'd say that was clearance ground or filed in the barrel for the main spring.

I took another look, and although the line isn't straight, I would think it does look unusually uniform for it to be a natural crack, like it is tooling, so perhaps (and I hope) you're onto something there. 

  All is not well though, as the set trigger does not activate the trigger, and the trigger does not release the cock.  At this point, it sadly seems I'm going to have to find a gunsmith in my area who also works on traditional muzzleloaders to figure out why the set trigger doesn't do anything, and why the trigger isn't engaging or releasing the sear.

If there's a silver lining it's that I've learned quite a bit just from cleaning & fussing with it so much, and I appreciate all the help in this thread that got me this far.  The flintlock mechanism works great now after all the cleaning.

[Mauser06]

Does the trigger work outside of the lock?? 


Post some pics of the trigger.. someone here can likely spot the issue...if there is one.   


If the lock works and the trigger works, they should work together. They came out of the rifle and it's clearly been fired at least once or twice...