Author Topic: Jug choke turkey loads  (Read 12541 times)

Offline Mauser06

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Jug choke turkey loads
« on: March 30, 2017, 04:11:50 AM »
So I got my barrel back from being jug choked today.  Had a few hours of light left and went to see how it shot. 


Right now, I'm pretty disheartened.  I wouldn't shoot a turkey at 20 yards.


It's a 20 bore. Today I tried around 10 different loads with #6 nickel plated shot.


Many guys on here claim 40+ yard patterns.  So I hope I am "missing something". 



You guys with jugged guns, would you mind sharing some load details???  Shot size, kind of shot, how much shot and powder, wads and shot cards etc??   


I had pretty high hopes. I'd appreciate any info...I know every gun and barrel is different...But hopefully there's something I am missing that'll get me in the ball park. Right now I am covering a 3ft sheet with some pellets and where the rest go is beyond me.  Probably be dandy pheasant and rabbit loads of they sit tight.

Offline gumboman

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2017, 05:19:06 AM »
My turkey gun is a New England fowling piece in 12 bore of my own build. Has a Colerain American Fowler barrel of 44 inch length. Jug choked by Lowell Tennyson. I get great pattern density at 40 yards with 105 grains 2F black powder, 2 each 1/8" over powder cards from Circle Fly lubed with mink oil, 1-3/4 ounce #5 shot and one .070" over shot card from Circle Fly. I have a very high level of confidence this load will put 6-8 shot in the kill zone of a turkey at 40 yards every time. Sometimes more. At 20 yards the pattern density is just awesome.

I tried 1/2" cushion wads and found pattern density opened up just a little.  Also broke the cushion wads into 3 pieces. That was slightly better but not as good as loads with no cushion of any kind.

Next will try shot cup and different cushion material. But with the above load I am totally satisfied.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2017, 12:45:04 PM »
Who jugged it? Not all jugs are created equal.
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Offline Robby

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2017, 03:01:32 PM »
What range? If you are only getting 'some pellets' on a three foot sheet maybe all the rest are pattered above, below, to the right or left of that three foot sheet, find where the center of the pattern is, that would be my first undertaking. What level of choke does your choker claim it to be?
Robby
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 03:02:03 PM by Robby »
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Offline JBJ

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2017, 04:41:15 PM »
It was jug choked without patterning? I am missing something here as I assume that that the person that jugged the barrel would have tested his work. If so, what load was used to test the choke? did As Mike said  - "Not all jugs are created equal."
J.B.

Offline Mauser06

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2017, 05:30:44 PM »
It was jugged by one of the 2 names I see posted here frequently. I don't feel the need to make them as I'm not claiming the work is bad. I'm just trying to figure out what real expectations is. Maybe mine are too high.



I shot at 20 and 25yds. I doubt my pattern is missing the target...I shot a roundball and it hit 2-3" high at 25yds...I'd assume my pattern would be right there somewhere. 



Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2017, 06:04:00 PM »
It was jug choked without patterning? I am missing something here as I assume that that the person that jugged the barrel would have tested his work. If so, what load was used to test the choke? did As Mike said  - "Not all jugs are created equal."
J.B.
Hard to test if there is no gun built around it or if it's not in hand.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 06:04:43 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2017, 06:10:12 PM »
It was jugged by one of the 2 names I see posted here frequently. I don't feel the need to make them as I'm not claiming the work is bad. I'm just trying to figure out what real expectations is. Maybe mine are too high.



I shot at 20 and 25yds. I doubt my pattern is missing the target...I shot a roundball and it hit 2-3" high at 25yds...I'd assume my pattern would be right there somewhere.
Put at least 1 1/4oz shot in there. Equal volume of 2ff. Use an over powder card, a lubed fiber wad, and an overshot card over the shot. If it blows a dognut use a 3/8" felt wad over tghe over powder card. It would be very unusual for it to blow a dognut. If none of that works send it back to your jugger and tell him it needs tweeked. I have never had one that didn't shoot well, at least that's what my customers tell me, I don't shoot them before I send them off.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2017, 08:10:13 PM »
I use standard load construction in my choked smoothbore.
over powder hard card
felt (donna conna) Circle Fly wad - lubed
1 ounce to 1 1/8oz. shot
thin over-shot card
75gr. 2F.
Daryl

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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2017, 08:19:15 PM »
I use standard load construction in my choked smoothbore.
over powder hard card
felt (donna conna) Circle Fly wad - lubed
1 ounce to 1 1/8oz. shot
thin over-shot card
75gr. 2F.
One of my friends used to date Donna Conna.......
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Offline Mauser06

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2017, 06:22:25 AM »
Thanks for the guidance!  I appreciate it!   I know experimenting is key and every barrel can be different.

One thing I notice, a lot of loads with jugs using 2f. I've always shot 3f.  Figured it was fine if I keep the charge a little lower..Did some reading and sounds like Fowler's often pattern better with 2f. I don't know if it'll help..But seems like it's worth a shot..The slower burn rate is said to help the pattern...Kinda makes sense.


Here is a pic of my best 20yd pattern.




That's #6 nickel plated shot. 1" bullseye sticker for reference. The sheet of paper is roughly 2ft wide and 3ft tall without measuring. It'd certainly kill a turkey and probably a little beyond that range.

That was 75gr of 3f, 3 thin overshot cards, 95gr of shot (by volume)  and an overshot card on top.

I tried heavier loads..Nitro card, 1/2" fiber cushion wad, variations of thin 1/16 or maybe 1/8" wool wads etc. Like I said, so far out of about a dozen shots, that was the best.

Not sure what to try to try to tighten it down...I'm a realist. I'm hunting with a flintlock. Turkeys are a big tough bird..I don't expect to flatten them at 40-50+ yards. I would like to have a killing pattern at 30 -35yds..Not to shoot them that far, but for the misjudged range..And more so the 20-25yd pattern clobbers them and does the job.

I had a better 30yd pattern when it was a Colerain turkey choke than what my best 20yd pattern is currently.

I just hope to put more density into the pattern and it's be nice to have that pattern at 30yds.


I have some experimenting to do...I know that. Just was hoping to get a point in the right direction.

Going to try to pick up 2f tomorrow. Pretty wet looking forecast. I will be shooting every chance I get though..May will be here quickly! 

On a side not..Being able to shoot roundballs is nice..Still have to see how they shoot..And cleaning is much better now that it's not a tapered choke. That taper choke puked nasty water on me every time. The last time it burped right into my face. That was the last straw and why I sent it to be removed and jugged. 

Joe S

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2017, 04:19:44 PM »
Quote
I'm a realist. I'm hunting with a flintlock.

You are hunting with a 20 gauge.  The ignition system is irrelevant. 

If you want better patterns at longer ranges, use a bigger bore.  There is a reason that the most popular turkey guns are 12 or 10 gauge.

Offline Mauser06

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2017, 04:40:51 PM »
And I can show you patterns from modern sub-bores that would blow that theory out of the water.


You're absolutely right. The ignition system isn't the down fall.  But the bore size shouldn't be either. 

By Hunting with a Flintlock I meant it DOES have it's limitations. I don't expect to be able to crumble a bird at 60+ yards.   

I'm not after that. Just looking to achieve a better pattern.   

Offline Osprey

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2017, 05:04:40 PM »
Maybe it was something in the work of turning the full turkey choke into a jug choke, can't imagine that task it done often, if ever.   I get patterns that good in my cylinder bore 16ga at 20 yards, 2oz shot and 90 grains FF, half a 1/2" cushion wad over powder, slightly ripped - maybe 1/3 across - hard over shot card. 

With the statement that you didn't get good patterns when it was a factory Colerain turkey choke, it's either the barrel or your load development, although I'd bet on the latter.  Keep working at it.  Or get 'em close and shoot 'em in the face.   ;) 
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Joe S

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2017, 05:08:40 PM »
My Dear Mr. Mauser

I am very old and very wise.  You should believe everything I say because I am always right and I never lie.

You might try powder => 3 thin overshot cards => shot => 1 thin overshot card.  This works well for some people.  The 1F is also certainly worth a try.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 05:29:38 PM by Jose Gordo »

Offline Mauser06

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2017, 11:05:55 PM »
Jose, that pattern pictured is actually loaded that way.  It was the best of the stuff I tried this far.    Going to play with shot and powder charges and see if I can't find some magic there. 



Osprey, you're right. And that's possible.  The tapered choke was removed and the bore was back to a cylinder bore. Then the jug was made.   Not sure what it'd go wrong. Though possible. Not like I did it myself in the garage...Which crossed my mind lol.


I don't know what to expect and I don't know if jugs are usually pretty easy or pretty picky. I know I tried around 10 loads and that one posted was the best and that is 20yds.   


You mention my load development might be at fault..It very well could be. There isn't much available for turkey load science.   I've shot nearly 10lbs of shot this year and that was mostly load development..That's not a ton of shot but I did shoot it a fair bit.  I will admit I don't know much on what makes a better pattern.....That's why I made this post. Hoping to gain some insight into what might help. 

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2017, 11:21:25 PM »
20 bores should shoot great. I patterned a customer's jugged gun and it put all of 1 1/4oz #4 shot in an 18" circle @ 20 yards. I have a jugged 20 I'll be shipping early this week, I think I'll pattern it this week and see how it shoots.
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Joe S

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2017, 03:46:37 PM »
There are two other things that you can try - go the less powder, more lead route, or you can use a buffer. That's all I can think of.

Another option to consider is using the 20 gauge for doves, and building yourself a PTG (Proper Turkey Gun).  In case you don't know what a PTG looks like, here's a nice one: 

http://www.fowlingguns.com/hv328.html

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2017, 04:34:01 PM »
Maybe all those states east of California have armor plated turkeys. I wouldn't know, but I know about wild turkeys in California. They can easily be cleanly killed with a twenty gauge, cylinder bore, out to twenty five yards, by a newbie. Longer ranges takes a little more fooling around with shot, powder, and wadding, but thirty yards isn't impossible.
 In my experience, use the biggest shot size allowed by law. Drive that shot with a good healthy charge of 2F, or even 1F, if you can find it. The slower the powder burns, the less likely it is to blow the pattern. Everybody has their own card/wad combination that they swear by, but don't get locked into that. Try a bunch of different loads, and wad combinations.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Mauser06

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2017, 06:29:27 PM »
Thank guys!   


I picked up some 2f.  I've read that enough times to decide maybe there is something to it....1f will be impossible to find here.


Does bigger shot tend to pattern better??  Seems like a catch 22 as there would be less of them. 



Like Jose said, the current loads aughta do dandy jump shooting pheasants and rabbits and the like.  If it shoots roundballs well I can deer hunt with it too....Still wanted it to be a turkey gun.

Maybe I will figure out the magic combination for it.  Maybe there isn't one.  Back to the range hopefully Monday.  Maybe that 2f will do the trick....Weirder simple changes have worked before....


I have lots of different wads to play with. I have real thin wool wads I can stack. When it was a taper choke, that stack of wool wads made a big difference. And being thin and light, they seemed to do much better than the thick fiber cushions. They'd scatter out of the bore.


Did get patching too so I can see how roundballs fair...So far I only shot the one bare ball.  If it was a deer at 25yds, it'd been dead. 



Stay tuned.   If anyone else has ideas or input I am all ears...

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2017, 06:57:01 PM »

Quote
Does bigger shot tend to pattern better??  Seems like a catch 22 as there would be less of them.

In my experience yes. I hunt everything with #4's.
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Offline Mauser06

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2017, 07:13:15 PM »
Thanx Mike.  That's another area to experiment.  Lots more #6s in a load than #4s.   That's what led me to buy a bag of nickel #6 shot. Though #4s are bigger/heavier..


Hope is not lost yet.  If I had that pattern at 30 yards I'd be pretty satisfied.  I just don't know if that is an unreasonable expectation or not from a jugged bore. Sounds like it is possible. 


Joe S

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2017, 07:14:01 PM »
I hunt everything with #6. This is a habit, not the result of thoughtful experimentation. All things considered, #4 is a better choice for turkey and long range pheasants.  But, #6 is OK out to 40 yards or so.  Beyond that, I can't hit fur or feathers anyway, so it works for me.

HH

Of course a 20 is fine for turkeys.  I have a very tightly choked .410 that would be a reasonable turkey gun out to 20 yards.  However, a PTG has several advantages that should not be lightly disregarded:

1.  You can put more shot in them.  This is important if you are a poor shot.
2.  You start out a full two yards closer to the turkey.  This matters if you are a poor hunter.
3.  They are quite heavy, so even if you don't get a turkey, you get plenty of exercise.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 08:13:28 PM by Jose Gordo »

Joe S

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2017, 07:16:05 PM »
Mr. Mauser

You need more guns. 

Try buffering the shot.  That's the best way I know of to tighten patterns.  Cornmeal will do.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 07:17:40 PM by Jose Gordo »

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Jug choke turkey loads
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2017, 10:34:15 PM »
I've found that a 12 gauge loaded up to kill turkeys consistently at 30 yards kicks to much when shot while sitting on the ground, which is where most of my shots originate.
 I think the gun in question may have gone backwards in it evolution towards being a "turkey gun". JMO.

  Hungry Horse