Author Topic: A Little Testing  (Read 4328 times)

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5324
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
A Little Testing
« on: April 14, 2017, 02:35:07 AM »
Hied out to the range today to do a bit of testing on a .40 rifle I recently "crowned".  The old chronograph came along for the ride.  I wanted to compare denim patched loads with the heavy mattress ticking ones.  Now, Previous tests using Hoppes for lube gave 1700 fps with 40 grains of 3F and about 1930 fps with 60 grains; all well and good and very accurate.

My lube of choice this time was Track's mink oil.  Using denim patches first gave pretty tough seating in the square cut bore; unlike the easier loading in my Rice, .50 round bottom bore without being crowned.  Five shots with 60 grns 3F gave 2140 fps.  WOW! 

Then it was time for the same test except with mattress ticking patches.  Here's where it becomes interesting.  60 grains of 3F and the .022" mattress patches gave a 5 shot average velocity of 2148 fps; yes, I did a double take, too!  E.S. was 73 fps.  Now the shocker.  With 40 grains of the same powder the ave. velocity was 1658 fps.  Still scratching my head about that one.  60 grains with mink oil, all else the same, gave a 200 fps speed increase!  E.S. with 40 grains was only 31 fps.  Quite a few shots were fired, about 30, with no wiping using mink oil and mattress ticking; did have to wipe shooting denim patches (.025").  The ticking loads were quite "snug", by the way, but loading NEVER got harder.  I think that maybe the shallower square rifling simply didn't like the extra compression required with denim.  No accuracy testing was done; save that for another time.  The deep, .016" round grooves in the .50 took the extra compression in stride even though it has yet to be "crowned".  And, yes, I'm still shaking my head over this one.

P.S.  I liked mink oil for hunting before this; but now like it even better.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline smokinbuck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2972
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2017, 02:41:04 AM »
Hanshi,
Sounds interesting,  and a little perplexing.  I have been using ticking for patches and Mr.  Flintlock for lube.  Loads easy and improved accuracy.
Mark

Mark

Offline Mauser06

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2017, 02:49:03 AM »
Was the weather similar??? 


I've never tested it...But 200fps seems like a huge difference with only lube being the only difference.


I need a chronograph.  I find stuff like that overly fascinating. 

Joe S

  • Guest
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2017, 04:16:00 AM »
What is E.S.?

Offline EC121

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1592
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2017, 04:29:46 AM »
Extreme Spread.
Brice Stultz

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5324
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2017, 04:44:06 AM »
I'll be scratching my head for a while, I suppose.  A good while back I had a consistent 250 fps increase with just a 5 grain increase from 35grns to 40grns.  I'm not through yet, either, it seems.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

nosrettap1958

  • Guest
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2017, 04:52:10 AM »
The one loading increased significantly but the other load decreased in velocity from you previous testing using the Hoppes as lube.

That is a head scratcher.

   

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15380
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2017, 05:51:22 AM »
hanshi- back when I was shooting the .40 cal. 48" twist Goodoien rifle, I tried the newer and older as well, LeHighValley lubes.  The results were identical, using 65gr. 3f and 75gr. 2F both gave the same accuracy 1/2" to an inch at 50 yards as well as very similar velocity 2,260fps.

While the mink oil and Neetsfoot oil wasn't as slippery, I used the same loads when I used the oily lubes.

The rifle shot the same accuracy wise, with 50 and 55gr. 3F with a water based, lube, but the speed was down in the mid 1,700's. Results were the same with the .398" ball and the .400" ball, in the rifle's .398" bore(tight).

The slippery lubes were less accurate with less than 65gr. of powder. At 65gr., it shone indeed.

A similar occurrence happened with the 60" twist .45 cal. rifle with a .450" bore, using a .445" ball, such that 55 to 60gr. of 3f shot accurately with water based lubes, in the mid 1,700fps range, but with the slippery lube (LHV) I had to use 75gr. 3f GOEX and 85gr. 2F GOEx- both running in the 2,250fps to 2,270fps range.

My patches through all of this remained the same in both rifles, 10ounce denim (.0225")or the heavy mattress ticking (.0235")

No wiping, start to finish for either rifle.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5324
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2017, 05:51:17 PM »
Daryl, that is very interesting information.  Got me to thinking (I know, really bad thing for me to try).  I've always found it puzzling that in the various tests of velocity in various calibers, "X" grains gives "Y" velocity; but the next load, "X+1" gives "Y -1" velocity.  So speed is not a straight line consistent with increased powder charges.  It's rather a rising graph with sudden dips and peaks.  Maybe that's what I uncovered, in this particular rifle, simply by switching lubes along with the heavier mattress ticking.  I'll be trying this again to see if the results were anomalies.  I've yet to actually chronograph the other calibers that use mink oil.  I'll certainly post all additional test results.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15380
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2017, 07:59:03 PM »
Since I still have Spit, WWWF+NFOil, Track's Mink Oil, Neetsfoot Oil, Mr. Flintlock's Lube as well as Shenendoah and LHV, I feel a chronotest & some long range days coming up. The little .36 might be an interesting tool for the job.
I only have a .350 mould, so that little ball will have to do.  Rice Barrel with square rifling.
Better get busy casting, eh.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12594
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2017, 08:12:23 PM »
Hanshi:  I'd recommend changing only ONE ingredient at a time in your testing.  Changing both the lube and patch at the same time really tells you nothing.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline snapper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2380
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2017, 08:24:04 PM »
I agree, change one thing at a time.

What are you trying to achieve with your experiments?

fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2017, 11:03:39 PM »
In a .40 Vincent I built, .400 balls and 40 grains of Goex 3F with .020 OxYoke patches and spit lube gave 1432 fps mean with 157 fps E.S. for five shots and a 4.25" group at 50 yards.  With no wiping, the last three balls I had were shot with .010 OxYoke patches, all else the same, and they gave 1652 fps with 50 E.S. in a 1.00 inch group.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 12:16:56 AM by Herb »
Herb

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5324
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2017, 02:53:37 AM »
Herb, I've used quite a few lubes over the decades but never expected the results I got.  My intention was simply to see if the velocity of my established load was in line with Hoppes.  It definitely will surprise one when values suddenly come out of left field.  It appeared to be accurate but that will need further testing.

I posted the results on another forum and was immediately attacked!  It was not thought to be "Earth shattering" or some such; and every response indicated they already knew those results before I chronographed the shots.  A lot of difference between this forum and some others.  :o
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2017, 04:11:28 AM »
Yes, there is another one but I rarely post anything there.  It is different, I like this one much better.
Herb

nosrettap1958

  • Guest
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2017, 06:44:46 AM »
I would just go back and see how accurate that 60 grain load is. Sounds like a great hunting load with those velocity numbers you're getting.   

Beautiful Vincent Herb!!!

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5324
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: A Little Testing
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2017, 11:08:21 PM »
The only thing I changed was the lube; patch and ball were the same I've used all along.  The little trials with denim see just to see if they could be seated with the wood rod.  Ended up that there was nothing to recommend denim, anyway, as the .022" mattress ticking equaled the velocities and could be seated with the underbarrel rod and without wiping between shots; perfect deal for hunting.

Mad Monk suggested I drop the 60 grain charge by 5 grains and check ES again.  My figures were consistent with his experience of increases in charge weight dropping ES until a point was reached where they started climbing again.  Same thing going toward the bottom loads.  I'll try his suggestion and test the accuracy again to see if it has remained the same.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.