Jug choke turkey loads

[Joe S]

With a 5 foot long barrel, and a 2 1/4" thick butt, I find recoil reasonable, with up to 115 gr of F and 1 5/8 oz of #6.  And I'm a recoil weenie.  I get good 30 yard patterns with a cylinder bore and this combination in a 10 gauge.  It will tip me over from time to time, but like you I shoot sitting.  Since I don't fall very far, it doesn't hurt too much.

However, my next gun will be a 5 1/2 or 6 pound 16 gauge.  I think I'll probably jug choke it.  I'm hoping my knees hold up until I get that done.  Then I think I'll relegate my HV Fowler to its original purpose.

[Eric Krewson]

I had two 12 ga barrels jug choked by Caywood, one will shoot a very dense pattern at 40 yards, one struggles to shoot a dense pattern at 25 yards, both were jug choked full.

This sounds crazy but try putting a 1/2" cushion wad over the shot. I saw this on the ML Forum. The 1/2" wad didn't work for me but 2 1/8" hard cards over the shot really tightened my 25 yard pattern in the poor performing jug choke.

This is what I ended up with out of the poor performing gun, without the over shot cards cards the pattern would be half as dense. 90 gr of 1F, two thin over shot cards, wool cushion wad, 1 3/4 oz of  #6 shot and two hard 1/8 " card over the shot.

[Mike Brooks]

Who would have thunk it..... it's surprising what will work....

[Mauser06]

Thank Eric!  I would have never thought to try something over the charge other than thin overshot cards...


How far is that pattern?? 

Will experiment with that too lol. 

Mine didn't seem to appreciate heavy shot charges. Higher shot charges peppered my entire sheet of paper. As did most loads I tried. 

[Hungry Horse]

Developing a good working load for a smoothbore can be a long laborious task. That being said, I have never seen one that flat wouldn't shoot a reasonably tight pattern after the proper load was found. Of course, you can't ask the gun to do what it literally can't do. And, it may be a long stretch to get a gun that has been so serverly reworked to pattern. I think all too often people dash off to the jug choke crowd long before the get anywhere near the end of all the load options. Old books on birding, and waterfowling, mention several load combinations, not using commercially manufactured components of course. Sometimes one or more of these components, or techniques, can make all the difference.

  Hungry Horse

[Mauser06]

You're right on hungry horse....Sometimes the smallest thing can make a difference. 


I had a load worked up that went from 4 stacked wool wads to 5 and the difference in pattern was incredible. My wool wads are 1/16". That's a pretty small thing to make a big difference. 



Planning to be on the patterning board again tomorrow.   

[Hungry Horse]

One of the traders I used to run around with, showed up at a musket frolic with a Japanese copy of a 1763 Charlesville in .69 caliber. He did pretty good on the round ball course, but I expected to clean up on him when we started shooting shot. Boy was I wrong. He shot a fat charge of 1F, used a thin cork card over the powder, and held it all in with an old piece of wool blanket, with a little bear grease on it. Heck, the thing barely boomed, much less cracked when he fired it. But, he pulverized the clays that day, and made me rethink all the expert advice I had gotten from the rest of the losers.

  Hungry Horse

[Mike Brooks]

Well, I did a little patterning work with a jugged 20 bore today myself. This one is choked about .022 if I recall. First shot 2 dr. 2ff followed by an over powder card, fiber cushion lubed by finger with wonder lube followed by 1 1/8oz #2 shot with an 18ga over shot on top. 25 long paces resulted in a killing shot but slightly low. A little more powder would probably lift that group a bit. also there aren't many shot in an 1 1/8oz load.....would be better if you were really going big time, say 1 3/4oz or more.
Second shot, 3 dr 2ff followed by over powder card, fiber cushion lubed by finger with wonder lube followed by1 3/8oz #4 shot with an 18ga overshot on top. shot at a long 25 paces and a turkey decapitator at that range. center of pattern was dead on....or I wobbled it that way... Also, the wad passed through the target near dead center but didn't seem to effect the pattern. Generally the wad will be destroyed as it passes through the choke...maybe it was a fluke.

Also shot a couple RB first. 2dr 2ff with a .015 pillow tick patch lubed with wonder lube. Shot two shots maybe 2" apart maybe 3" high at 25 long paces. Probably shot about dead on at 50 yards or a bit past.

So, Mauser 06 my professional opinion is you have an improperly cut jug. It needs to be recut by somebody who knows what they're doing. In the past I have always found that a properly cut jug will shoot about anything well. You got me so nervous about it I had to go try this gun tyo make sure it was going to work......Supper fast ignition too BTW, although I doidn't have a good enough set of calipers to properly measure the speed.
Oh, extremely comfy gun to shoot. barrel length is right a 40" and weighs 8 1/4lbs. For turks a little heavier gun is a good thing.

It heads to Alabamy tomorrow.

[Mauser06]

Thanx for the range report Mike!  And another fine looking flinter you built!   



I don't know that a jug can be re-cut without shortening the barrel?  If all else we're to fail...I didn't think it'd be something that can be worked again. But then again, I don't completely know the science behind a jug choke lol.

I grabbed some #4 shot and 2f to try.  And will try some other ideas.  Might head out now...But probably wait until tomorrow morning. By the time I'd get to the farm and set up I'd only have an hour or so.  Might as well wait until tomorrow. 

Anxious to get back to it though and see if I can figure something out...For being my best pattern and only 20 yards I'm just not thrilled. 

[Mike Brooks]

I did all my @$#%&*@ around in a light rain today which means I'd load in my shop than walk out to the shooting range. Got plenty of exercise today. I have no idea how you got from a tapered choke to a jug or how your jug was cut so I can't help you there. All I can say is you should have a cylinder bore with the jug starting 1" back from the muzzle and running towards the breech 4 or 5 inches. The angles the jug is cut at are critical as well.

[Mauser06]

Lol sounds like a workout!!  I got a workout last time I shot. I just got done waxing the truck and went to the farm and it was a muddy mess. I parked and hoofed my gear in a few hundred yards to where I shoot...


The taper is only like 2.25" long.  It was removed back to bore diameter. Don't know how. Then the jug was made. Don't know how...But like I said, the person that made it is one of the 2 most mentioned jug cutters on this forum.   



Will report back tomorrow.  Hopefully with good news! 

[Mike Brooks]

Lol sounds like a workout!!  I got a workout last time I shot. I just got done waxing the truck and went to the farm and it was a muddy mess. I parked and hoofed my gear in a few hundred yards to where I shoot...


The taper is only like 2.25" long.  It was removed back to bore diameter. Don't know how. Then the jug was made. Don't know how...But like I said, the person that made it is one of the 2 most mentioned jug cutters on this forum.   



Will report back tomorrow.  Hopefully with good news!

I don't think your shot is getting a chance to spread out inside the jug, it's probably too short.

[Mauser06]

I didn't measure it...But I'd guess the bottom of the jug is 4-5" or so from the muzzle.

[Mike Brooks]

I didn't measure it...But I'd guess the bottom of the jug is 4-5" or so from the muzzle.

Well, that sounds about right to me.

[Hungry Horse]

Full chokes are forty thousandths, in a tapered choke. I would suspect it is about the same with a jug choke. Modern tapered chokes are not bored to a taper as they were in the early days. They are only in the last three or four inches of the barrel, and are done with a press, rather than taper bored. The length of the choke in a jug choked barrel is critical, if it's too short it doesn't work, and if it's too long it doesn't work. This would probably be complicated enough to get right if you started out with a cylinder bore barrel, but to ream and polish out the tapered choke, and then cut the jug choke in behind it, really sounds like there are a lot of opportunities for the project to go south.
 I think the first thing you need to do is find out what the diameter of the choke is, it's over all length, and what the dementions of the section where the original choke was, is currently.

  Hungry Horse

[Mauser06]

Got to shoot today again....2f...#4 shot...#6s.  #6s with 4st on top....Wads, etc etc.


For a while I was about ready to take the barrel off the stock and Chuck it in the pond.



I  was nearly completely out of ideas and decided to load with a nitro card...I also skipped the buffer on that load.  Don't know why.  I've never fired shot that wasn't buffered with commercial shotshell buffer.   I just assumed it worked because...Well...It's supposed to. 

The results....





That's a 20yd target with somewhere around 110-115 hits in a circle somewhere around 10". I forget the exact diameter of the plate but I know it's close to 10" lol. 

While not stellar...And I'm still not satisfied...I can atleast kill a turkey with that. And it repeated over and over.  I tried a few changes but it didn't change the #s...

Started to rain heavy so I packed it up. 



Now I have to revisit a few others and see if my buffer wasn't messing everything up...Or if the nitro card made the difference.   


I didn't like nitro cards.  Thick heavy solid material.  I thought they'd surely blow patterns and when I tried them, they never did well till today's experiment.... Interesting enough...I can't recover a nitro was. I wonder if they don't disintegrate? 

That's the best patterns I've thrown this far...I'd love to see that at 30+ yards...But that will get me a 25yd turkey...Maybe 30.

I still think I can improve on that....


I was smiling ear to ear shooting roundballs though....I tried a patched .600 ball... Patching is a tight weave bit thin cotton...015" I'd guess..I need to mic it. It loaded...But hit the bottom of the jug and it wasn't going any farther.  So I yanked it and shot bare ball. 

Rifle range is closed so I had to use the pistol range...Shooting standing with the gun on bags I nailed a 6" steel every shot at 40yds.  That's with a rifle and load that I haven't shot on paper yet....So, that's pretty cool...I would say I can certainly deer hunt with it...


Never would I have thought that the buffer was ruining the patterns......



So, I'm now a lot happier.  As it stands I lost some pattern from where I was before...I was shooting 130s in the same circle at 30yds as a taper...One load was did 190..Wish I'd tried it without buffer! Lol. 

So as it stands, I lost some pattern but gained roundballs. And I still think I can improve the pattern a bit. 


It's crazy what seems like a minor change can do for a pattern. 


Another perk....I got some trigger time.  I should be shooting pretty well come May....Flintlocks are almost like a bow for me...If I don't shoot regularly I can still shoot OK..But when I'm shooting regularly I can surprise myself.

[Mike Brooks]

That's as good a pattern as I've seen anybody else shoot. How much shot and powder in the load?

[Dave Marsh]

Besides volume of shot and powder can you list what and how many cards over the powder and the shot? 

Thanks,

Dave

[Hungry Horse]

My theory on muzzleloaders in general, and smoothbores in particular, is that the best thing that could happen to most shooters, would be a good case of amnesia, that wiped out all knowledge of modern firearms. Then we wouldn't keep trying to apply modern technology to primitive arms. Shooting within the limitations of a muzzleloading gun is part of the attraction. How can a shooter be proud of his shooting skills if he added a bunch of modern technology to his " Primitive Gun" so he doesn't have to be good at stalking, or doesn't have to know how to use natural cover, or make a good call. Or, doesn't have to take the time to think out of the box, and make his gun perform to its optimum potential? I hate to see new shooters encouraged to take the modern shortcuts that may or may not be a big help. And, might just screw your beautiful longrifle, or fouler, up to the point it either can't be fixed, or the cost is prohibitive.

  Hungry Horse

[Mauser06]

A fella goes from asking for load date to being asked for load data....Haha. 



That's 85gr of 2f.
A nitro card
100gr of #6 nickel plated shot (somewhere around 1 3/8oz)
2 of the super thin overshot cards


I am still betting and hopefully I can get a bit better yet.   But, it'll do as it is now...

I like the load because it's simple...the nitro cards and over shot cards are simple to carry.  No lube and buffer to mess with. 

[Hungry Horse]

I agree. All that other stuff is why shooting bags today are the size of steamer trunks. IMO the answer is almost always simplicity. If it takes a hammer or a hydraulic press to get your load down bore, it probably isn't the optimum load. The same goes for loads that have five or six components. You guys need to remember what you keep telling the wife more workin' and less shoppin'. Getting the optimum load always involves lots of research, head scratching, and range time, and almost never involves some"magic" component.

  Hungry Horse

[Mauser06]

Sometimes that's certainly true. 

I was shooting the roundballs yesterday with Nothing but shot cards and seems to work.  Paper will be the judge of that..But certainly seems to work.  With .600" balls, I can't use patches. Not sure of my bore diameter but the .600" ball doesn't drop straight down on its own. It will on a clean bore but barely.



The taper choke, I had a load that was very complex.  I actually didn't hunt with it because it required so much. 3 different wads and buffered shot. 



Experimenting is half the fun for me. Even this load..I'm not done and not settling.  If I don't find a better load by the season I will hunt with it...And continue experimenting after the season.  I enjoy shooting and like I said earlier, when I shoot regularly, I am a better shot.   So it's a win-win.

[Mauser06]

Hit the range again today.


Tried a different buffer and it just doesn't like it. 


Came up with the best load thus far. 




That's a 20yd pattern.



Measured my circle and realized I've been cheating myself...The bigger circle is closer to 10". Small one is like 8 3/4".

That pattern is at 30yds.


I put a bushes baked beans can on a post at 25yds and put 17 pellets through it.



I am happy with that load for now.  I will continue to tinker.  But that's likely going to be the load in the bore this season.   Any bird within 30yds will hit the dirt...If the monkey behind the trigger does his part.  Lol. 



Shot some roundballs.  3 on each plate at 40yds. 






Pretty happy with that. Just a smidge low/left. Not bad for never developing  a load though.

[Mike Brooks]

Nothing wrong with those patterns.

[Hungry Horse]

Would be interesting to know what the cylinder bore barrel would have done with this load, without all the nonathentic modifications. Long story short, getting a smooth bore to pattern isn't a cut and dried formula, and monkeying with the barrel isn't always the best fix.It just take a lot of range time, and patience. The old timers were more concerned with the flash of the pan spooking game than how tight their pattern was. So they most likely had the pattern part sorted out.

  Hungry Horse