Southern Iron mounted mountain rifle unknown

[Dave B]

I ran accross this piece and thought you guys may know more about its possible origins by the side plate, trigger guard and butt plate. It was restocked by some one who didnt do a very good job. The Iron underrib is held on by rivets dovetailed into the bottom of the barrel. I think it was originally a full stock and was broken then the barrel was given the under rib by a black smith. The lock is from a differnt rifle but used to make this work. The lock has a tip out catch where you would expect the front lock bolt to be threaded through the plate. The trigger guard is finely made from three pieces and brazed together. The side plate looked like brass but it is iron. the barrel is 43 1/2" long and is swamped. It has hammer marks in it yet. It was made in the hills for sure.  What do you think???

[Ken G]

Dave,
Hey, that Looks the first gun I built! 
I agree, restocked and not that well.  Looks like salvaged parts combled together.  Is that a square nail holding the front of the trigger guard on?  Interesting rifle.  Especially seeing the way the barrel rib has a rivet coming through.
Thanks for posting.
Ken

[timM]

Dave,.............  I like it.  Man, talk about character, it would be interesting to know where it was built?  It looks like it has been in its present form for quite awhile.  I wonder if maybe the side plate and barrel or some other combination previously mated together.  What caliber is it?  Thanks for the photos.  tim

[WElliott]

Why should we assume this stocking job was done in the South or that blacksmith-made iron furniture is always Southern or always done in the mountains?    

[Dave B]

Tim,
I think its about .43 or so I will have to get the calipers out to double check. It looks like the breach was shorted once while it was in its current configuration. The breach plug is not fit properly with the tang being too low to match up with the barrel.

The lock and the trigger guard and butt plate are of better quailty than the under rib job. So it would stand to reason that the under rib was done by less refined hands. It is done very practically and no nonsense. Just like a back woods boy would do it.

[Curt J]

Good point Wayne. I have several Midwestern rifles that have hand-forged iron mountings and have seen a number of others.  In fact the "H. Green, Henderson, Ill" rifle in the library falls into that category.

[G-Man]

The hardware looks to have come from a nice iron mounted rifle before the restock. 

You guys are right about the hardware possibilities - there were quite a few Ohio rifles stocked in iron - including some that you would be hard pressed to tell from pieces made in Virginia or Tennessee.  I've seen four Jerman Jordan (Ross County, Ohio) iron mounted pieces  - some with greaseholes and no buttplates - and the guards are very much like the one in these photos.  But I don't think he made this hardware.  Lots of southern and midwestern guns got carried west and used hard too - it could have been restocked somewhere different from where it was made.
 
That being said, the engraving on the sideplate, although rudimentary and possibly a later addition, is really close to a rifle that Myron Carlson  copied the hardware from, and Ron Borron did a drawing of.  Myron called it his "Rowan County" pattern but others have indicated it to be from southwestern Virginia or Tennessee.  (Wallace has shown another piece by the same hand, with a captured lid box, in a couple of his Muzzle Blasts articles.)  The buttplate has a similar feel to it as well.  The triggers are different but to me look very small for the guard and my guess is that they were possibly added at the time of the restock.

The shape of the long heel on the buttplate on the piece in the photos would sort of make me lean toward Southwestern Virginia or early east Tennesse, but that is not much to go on.  The guard is close to the two Joseph Bogle guards I've seen, but so are many others - including Jerman Jordan 

Was the spur at the back of the grip rail broken and repaired, or is there a joint there where the grip rail meets the piece that forms the rear finial?  If that is a visible joint right on the front of the spur, that would be atyptical and perhaps a way of narrowing it down.  What does the barrel tang look like?

Guy

[Dave B]

Guy,
The spur of the trigger guard has its seam right up the middle with it ending at the tip. The tang is long and slightly tapered as you can see in the picture. The tang hole dose line up for a through bolt to the trigger bar but the bolt is missing

[G-Man]

Thanks David - I think what I was looking at was just a shadow, or possibly a crack(?) across the front of the spur.

I just noticed that the guard has lugs and is pinned.  The Bogle rifle guard on AHS is pinned as well - this is a less typical on Appalachian rifles with forged hardware-  usually the guards are held in place with screws through the finials.  Assuming for the moment we are talking about Tennessee or southwestern Virginia, I tend to associate it with early makers who learned their trade somewhere else before moving into the region, but that is just my speculating.  The hardware, which leans more toward emulating the style of "golden age" guns from areas farther east and north, sort of goes along with this concept as well - it is much less stylized toward what we think of as mountain rifle style hardware that you see by the 1830s.

This general style of guard turns up on work from a number of makers.  Jim Levy posted photos of at least one in the Florida museum collection - it also had a captured lid patchbox.  Tom Patton has had a couple of posts about the idea that perhaps some of the common hardware patterns were made and sold to multiple gunsmiths in the region by iron mongers. 

Regardless of who made it and where, I think this hardware is pretty nice iron work - I would have also loved to see the first rifle it was on. 

Guy

[flintriflesmith]

I ran accross this piece and thought you guys may know more about its possible origins by the side plate, trigger guard and butt plate. ... the barrel is 43 1/2" long and is swamped. It has hammer marks in it yet. It was made in the hills for sure.   What do you think???

You don't say where the marks are, but hammer marks on the bottom three flats of a barrel should not be viewed as a sign of course work. I have seen very nice relief carved rifles where the smith did not feel it necessary to finish the bottom flats. Finishing surfaces that will not be seen was considered a waste of time/effort/money even on fine furniture, etc.

Gary

[J.D.]

Though rather crudely made, in its present form, this piece is still a neat gun.

Mention has been made about the finely made trigger guard. Would it be possible to get a view of the guard? How long is it?

Thanks, and God bless,
J.D.

[Dave B]

Gary the hammer marks are on the sides and bottom oblique flats. It also has some lumpyness to the contour from stem to stern. Certainly the top three flats are mostly free of hammer marks.

JD here are more shots of the guard

[J.D.]

Thanks Dave. The maker of that guard knew his work.