Author Topic: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?  (Read 13950 times)

Offline DaveM

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Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« on: April 03, 2017, 02:21:30 AM »
I'd appreciate opinions on whether this "R. Ashmore Warranted" lock is an original antique (and if it is an antique, does anyone know when it was made?), or if it may be a carefully aged reproduction.  Doesn't look to me like it was ever fired much?  Also I took the frizzen screw out and the screw threads seemed to still be rather shiny.   I have read that Ashmore locks were reproduced in the 1960's.  Thanks for any help.
Dave









« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 02:29:58 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2017, 04:18:48 AM »
Antique.  Original.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2017, 04:54:56 AM »
I agree, it's the real deal.

  Hungry Horse

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2017, 03:52:04 PM »
The wear on the frizzen face does not correspond to the wear on the boogered up screws.
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Online WadePatton

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2017, 04:48:57 PM »
The wear on the frizzen face does not correspond to the wear on the boogered up screws.

Super boogered screws, but also the cock and top jaw screw don't look exactly right to my eyes, Perhaps they were replaced along with the frizzen. 
Hold to the Wind

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2017, 05:04:24 PM »
The wear on the frizzen face does not correspond to the wear on the boogered up screws.

Super boogered screws, but also the cock and top jaw screw don't look exactly right to my eyes, Perhaps they were replaced along with the frizzen.

I think it's an old one. IF these were reproduced in the1960's there were very few of them.
The late Harold Hess of Livonia,Michigan and other places had a number of moulds he had
bought for locks and other things.As far as I know,nothing was ever made from any of them
beyond samples to see if the moulds were even usable.
The boogered screws are an indication of poor tool choices,nothing more.

Bob Roller
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 04:04:42 AM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2017, 07:02:13 PM »
A forged sear spring as opposed to a bent sheet steel one is one of the first things I look for. Almost all current era locks use sheet spring stock, not forged head and tapered spring body. Course it could have been made from castings off an original. Arguing against that, the engraving looks cut not cast in.
Andover, Vermont

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2017, 07:12:53 PM »
I think it is a complete original lock.  I also think it was owned by a ham-fisted Boer who used his hunting knife to tighten the screws.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2017, 07:15:37 PM »
A forged sear spring as opposed to a bent sheet steel one is one of the first things I look for. Almost all current era locks use sheet spring stock, not forged head and tapered spring body. Course it could have been made from castings off an original. Arguing against that, the engraving looks cut not cast in.

My springs ARE forged and tapered before being forged.The lock shown doesn't
have a cast spring as far as I can see.

Bob Roller

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2017, 08:09:28 PM »
I think it is a complete original lock.  I also think it was owned by a ham-fisted Boer who used his hunting knife to tighten the screws.
LOL,ain't that the truth ;)

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2017, 08:18:31 PM »
Am I seeing a roller in the bearing end of the mainspring?  A little work with some WD40 and a toothbrush would clarify it.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline wormey

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2017, 08:28:03 PM »
original.  wormey

Offline JTR

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2017, 10:07:48 PM »
I was wondering along with Taylor about the maybe roller on the main spring.
As for the frizzen, I see what looks like wear ripples in the face under the rust, and on the cock and top jaw, bumped up barbs, instead of cast in lines like you see on modern parts. Of course the wear ripples and bumped up barbs are all easy enough to do, but what would be the point?
I think it all original, and nice condition too!
John
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Offline DaveM

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2017, 10:35:54 PM »
Hey thanks everybody, this was an education for me, very helpful!  I thought it was original too - there seem to be file marks on all of the old surfaces - it does seem that the frizzen has older wear that has patina and the newer wear is someone snapping it in modern day.  The mainspring does indeed have a roller wheel on it.   I did not even think of half of these other things you guys mentioned but really good to know! 

I was not familiar with how sophisticated any of the mid 20th century repros may have been.

Dave

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2017, 11:25:30 PM »
Am I seeing a roller in the bearing end of the mainspring?  A little work with some WD40 and a toothbrush would clarify it.

I just clicked on the picture and there is a roller on that spring or at least the remains of one.

Bob Roller

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2017, 08:16:02 AM »
I'd appreciate opinions on whether this "R. Ashmore Warranted" lock is an original antique (and if it is an antique, does anyone know when it was made?), or if it may be a carefully aged reproduction.

Howard Blackmore lists Richard Ashmore as "Gunlock maker, Wednesbury, Staffordshire, 1827-55."

Typical hardware type lock.  The engraving pattern on tail of lock plate is often seen on locks on trade rifles.  It's interesting that the cock isn't a breasted cock that was popular on these locks in the 1820's and later.  It may not be original to lock.
Phil Meek

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2017, 03:02:47 PM »
This is just a possible way to determine the originality and is not THE answer.

Check the pitch on the threads.

Then do some research and find out if that pitch was available at the time the lock was supposed to be made.

This could be a bench mark to help determine when the lock was made.

People who produce fakes (furniture and the like) often miss or disregard these minor details.

Offline bgf

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2017, 10:44:09 PM »
I'm convinced it looks original, but I also agree to some extent with the hardware store lock comment.  Seems odd to have a roller on the frizzen spring and yet no stirrup link on the mainspring.  To me, that seems a lot like marketing these days where inexpensive mechanical things have lots of flashy visible gizmos but ordinary (at best) internals.  Yes, the lock would have worked fine, but it was made for a price point with the requisite compromises.

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2017, 10:53:00 PM »
It's actually a pretty good, Birmingham export trade lock. They sold literally tens of thousands of them.
Blackmore's dates are based on directory entries. I very much doubt Wednesbury had a directory any earlier than 1822, if even then but it's likely he was in business at least as early as 1815. All of the Birmingham locks were made in sever outlying towns, Wednesbury, Darleston and, to a lesser extent, West Bromwich.


Offline DaveM

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2017, 02:23:41 PM »
Joe, yes a date range starting in 1827 seems late to me for this lock.  Given the taper at the tail, hammer and pan style I originally thought maybe 1810-1815.  Do you have a sense of year based on british import locks you have seen?

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2017, 05:28:04 PM »
In my opinion, even if it has some older attributes, there is still no reason it is not from the late 1820s or later. It takes money and time to update patterns, and I can't imagine people churning out locks for the hardware trade updated their designs very often.
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2017, 05:43:57 PM »
I was wondering along with Taylor about the maybe roller on the main spring.
As for the frizzen, I see what looks like wear ripples in the face under the rust, and on the cock and top jaw, bumped up barbs, instead of cast in lines like you see on modern parts. Of course the wear ripples and bumped up barbs are all easy enough to do, but what would be the point?
I think it all original, and nice condition too!
John

I agree with JTR, when I looked at the frizzen I thought it appeared to have early wear that had rusted over then later wear that is much more obvious. I believe its an all original lock.
Dennis
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Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2017, 08:47:34 PM »
Here are a few points to remember about British export gun locks...

1st. Literally millions of them were made. There is no way millions of gun locks could be made in two or three Black Country villages over a period of 30 years without a massive amount of specialization. I am certain Ashmore, and ALL of the names we see on these locks were contractors, buying in parts from specialty suppliers like cock makers, plate makers, pin (screw) makers and fitters. They had to have adopted a very large degree of specialization and the locks themselves were probably more interchangeable than we customarily think and, specialization to this extent limits flexibility so older styles stayed in use far longer than is generally thought. The individual gun maker making a lock from scratch is largely a fantasy... if it ever existed, it was an obsolete process by the beginning of the beginning of the 18th century. Because the B'ham lock makers were able to produce so many, for so little cost, there was no incentive for American civilian gun makers to do so. Our military locks were made as part of a government subsidized program to achieve independence in arms manufacture as a matter of national security. It did not save money.

2nd. Virtually all of our dating criteria are based on "best quality" London guns which are much easier to date (because the makers are so well known) and, to a much greater extent than the provincial and export market, were fashion driven. That a new style is seen on a London gun that is readily dateable has relatively little to do with what was going on outside that market.

3rd. Locks were sold by the dozen in a very wide variety of quality. Based on William Ketland's wholesale price list (the only surviving document of it's type I am familiar with, written out in the summer of 1812) they ranged from 17/ per dozen, for the cheapest lock without internal or external bridles, to 145/ per dozen for the best quality with a waterproof pan and sliding safety. All of these were available simultaneously from the same sources so minor advancements in mechanical development are almost meaningless from a dating perspective.

The wholesale price for the cheapest export fowler was also 17/ so a dozen of the cheapest locks cost the same as a cheap gun while a dozen "best quality" locks cost 12/ each. These prices are in shillings in 1812. I don't have my notes on this at hand but in 1812 but the British pound reached it's lowest value vis-a-vis the dollar for the entire 19th century so these are about the best prices ever seen in the flintlock period.

By the late 1820s, percussion was already overtaking flint... again, this happened much quicker than we generally think, I suspect because many American collectors concentrate on the "frontier" where, as in the provincial gun market, older styles held on longer. But... gun locks were largely being exported to the east coast where the demand for percussion guns had nearly eclipsed flint by the late 1820s so, while some demand must have lasted for the older types, it was on the wane quite early and statistically, the vast majority of flint locks almost certainly pre-date 1822-23 which is when large quantities of caps start to be regularly advertised.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 09:00:05 PM by JV Puleo »

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2017, 09:44:45 PM »
Excellent with one minor exception: you ignore the vast quantities of flintlocks that were still being exported from England and mainland Europe for the American frontier/fur trade when you assume that just because percussion guns were rapidly becoming the norm in the highly populated regions
...the vast majority of flint locks almost certainly pre-date 1822-23 which is when large quantities of caps start to be regularly advertised.

While you are certainly right that makers crafting firearms for wealthy gentlemen adopted the new systems rapidly, especially on dueling pistols and high quality sporting arms, there is every reason to assume that those with less means and those making mass produced firearms would have stuck with flintlocks longer than the 1820s. It would have taken time and money to adapt production systems to produce different locks. We know that flintlocks were still used for military firearms into the 1840s and large quantities of guns meant for international trade, including the North American fur trade, were manufactured past the 1850s. We also know that in this specific instance that Ashmore manufactured many flintlocks (others have been discusses here and elsewhere), and as far as we know was not active in the trade until the late 1820s.
I am the Lead Historian and a Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2017, 12:15:52 AM »
Actually, my dates are base on the research of a friend of mine who has tracked advertisements for percussion caps in east coast newspapers. In 1822-23 they are always mentioned in the sense of being a "new" item although the quantities offered suggest that more than a handful of people already had percussion guns. By the late 1820s they are no longer new and, while many of the ads mention them, it is as matter of course along with other general shooting supplies.

I've never said that the flintlock went out of use, only that the heavy emphasis on the frontier and fur trade (where we can expect flint guns to have stayed in use longer, if only for the sometimes precarious supply of caps on the frontier) tends to skew our notion of how rapidly percussion ignition was adopted. Even the famous Hawkens adopted percussion early on. Most gun making and gun selling was not taking place in the west in the 1820s and by far MOST locks were being sold in areas where the new system was rapidly gaining ground... thus statistically, any export-quality flint lock is most likely going to pre-date the mid 1820s.

One can readily imagine why flint guns remained popular with Indians... they were still being sold at the end of the 19th century but that is a special case... they were also sold in Africa and all sorts of out-of-the-way places well into the 20th century. The real question should be "how many new guns were being made as flintlocks" after about 1825? Some certainly were, but I am inclined to think the number was small and shrinking rapidly.