Ashmore flintlock - antique or aged repro?

[Seth Isaacson]

I fully agree that the number of flintlocks would have continually declined after the introduction of the percussion system, but suggesting the number made after 1825 was small does not line up with period sources. We know that flintlocks remained the mainstay of the fur trade and the military, and we also know that period sources indicate many heading west still were advised to purchase flintlocks. We also know that some period sources suggested the percussion system was seen as poorly suited for rifles initially. Can we say more guns were made for the East than the West? It doesn't seem likely given they were of more use and need in the West, and we know of thousands of firearms being manufactured by multiple American and European makers specifically for the western trade. A. Meier & Co. in St. Louis was offering both flint and percussion locks in 1838. The Donner Party had some flintlocks with them in 1846. Some of this of course can be attributed to old stock.

So I agree that they would have become increasing less common, but I do not agree that few were manufactured as early as the mid-1820s given large numbers of flintlock firearms were made into the 1840s and even past the mid-1800s.

[Dennis Glazener]

I have mentioned this before but Mathew Gillespie was a lifelong gun maker in Henderson County NC. In 1846 he made a bear pistol for his own use (the only one he was known to have made) and he built it with a Golcher flintlock. Shows what he trusted to fire when needed!
Dennis

[galudwig]

Just curious.  Was there ever a time when Ashmore built flint locks with pans separate from the lock plate?  If you look at the close-up picture of the bolster, there is an obvious seam running right through the area where the pan and fence meet.  There is a "gap" at the bottom of the seam as well, as if metal is missing.  The bottom edge of the bolster is not a straight line either.



Here is a link to pictures of an Ashmore lock that include a picture of a solid bolster for comparison.

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/13932879

if you look closely at the picture of the faceplate, you can also see a seam running along the base of the pan where it meets the plate.



I think someone reconverted this lock back to flint by adding a pan. 

photo upload internet

[louieparker]

galudwig, Those things bother me also. Does anyone besides me have doubts about the cock ?  LP

[vtbuck223]

This is always an interesting conversation and I am pointing out that there seems to be more agreement than disagreement. Joe is undoubtedly correct in that the transition was not a slow one in much of the country. In the Northeast I don't believe that anyone was making flintlocks outside of a few military contracts after 1830. Here in my home state of Vermont...there had already been a modification coming out of the  percussion era with the manufacturing of the dreaded....unmentionable.... "-----hammer". Of course...Texas thought well enough of them to order a bunch in 1835!

[Seth Isaacson]

Pattern on the cock seems to match others by Ashmore. Perhaps most of them have been reconverted using parts from Dixie? Are some of these actually the Dixie reproduction locks?

Images of other Ashmore locks:


More here:https://www.gunauction.com/buy/13932879


From here: http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-2359-attractive-john-leckner-relief-carved-york-county-flintlock-kentucky-rifle-50132/


From here: http://fontainesauction.hibid.com/lot/3485-13949-3773/r--ashmore-full-stock-flintlock-44-caliber-kentuck/


From here: https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/czerny-international-auction-house-ltd/catalogue-id-srcz10001/lot-76b92fe7-24de-4c5e-a8c5-a3fc00e78048



From here: https://worthingtongalleries.com/shop/rare-19th-century-r-ashmore-kentucky-full-stock-long-rifle/


From here: https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/70/360#detail

[JV Puleo]

I have never seen a Birmingham export lock with a detachable pan and I've probably looked at several hundred of them, if not a lot more, in the last 40 years.

I do think that many "converted" guns may have been made as percussion using left over flint locks. I've had at least two of them — fowlers that had locks that were clearly made as flint but located to far back to ever have been used that way. One of these was also a club butt with short land pattern furniture and barrel so, at a glance it looked like a Revolutionary War musket... except for it's Ashmore lock and drum located at the very end of the barrel. Regardless of what it looked like, it has always been a percussion gun. Nearly all of the original guns I've taken apart have breech plugs that are much thinner than modern makers consider safe, sometimes only engaging by two or three coarse threads.

The Ruggles brothers patented their simple percussion gun lock in 1826 or 27... something that would have made no sense at all were not caps readily available at the same time. They also were not in Boston or one of the populous seacoast areas but in a small town in central Massachusetts. I've been there, it has hardly changed since 1827.

[DaveM]

Galudwig, maybe you are on to something there.  Looking at the outside of the pan however, the bowl of the pan and the rear fence of the pan are (or appear to be) one piece as I don't see any seam under or on top of the pan.  The arrow you show pointing to the top of the pan between the fence and bowl is actually a file line and parts all have faint file marks on them.  Though this is my lock and I wish it is original flint, my original hope was to know for certain what I have - and knowing that for sure is seeming less likely.  The lock appears to be the original lock to a rifle I have, that I think may have come from the kindig collection, but one thing that never did not quite look right to me was that the hammer rest on the lock is a slight bit forward of the original stock notch for the hammer rest.  Otherwise I visually see no difference in patina or aging between various lock parts at least to my eye.

So it may be a reconversion and for my purposes I guess I'll assume it is - but if it is, whoever did it before I got it did a masterful job.

[Hungry Horse]

The rough gun from Fontainsaution is a modern lock. The dead giveaway is the screw heads, and the frizzen spring.

  Hungry Horse