30 year old black powder

[gumboman]

Flintlocks are my favorite guns and I burn quite a lot of powder. I have a can of Goex 4F which I have had for more than 30 years. It is used as pan powder in my flintlocks. Today while looking at the old scratched up metal can, I wondered what affect age has on speed of ignition. The can is about half full so there are a lot of shots left in the old container and I don't want to throw it away.

So my question to more experienced shooters is this. Can old age have detrimental affects on black powder even when stored properly? I seem to get good ignition but it could be that I am accustomed to the speed of the flash for this particular can. I wonder does black powder break down chemically with old age? Maybe this is a question for the Goex factory. But I am thinking that many of the forum users would have some advice on this.

[Mauser06]

I had a similar can of goex 4f..


Last year I got a new can.   


I noticed the new stuff does indeed seem to ignite quicker. In my mind, there's. I questions about it. 

The powder itself seems different too IMO. The old stuff was more granular and bigger...The new stuff is more powder like.


The old stuff still burns...But doesn't seem to have the same zip to it...

[Bob Roller]

I had a similar can of goex 4f..


Last year I got a new can.   


I noticed the new stuff does indeed seem to ignite quicker. In my mind, there's. I questions about it. 

The powder itself seems different too IMO. The old stuff was more granular and bigger...The new stuff is more powder like.


The old stuff still burns...But doesn't seem to have the same zip to it...

I still have a can of DuPont 4fg that I got from E.M.Farris in the mid 1960's and it's still good.
Also a can of DuPont 3fg bought from Wes Kindig in 1969 at Friendship.Still good.

Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

I've got Dupont from the 50's. Still good and I use it.

[alyce-james]

I also have DuPont, I think I put my supply away in the 1960's, as I recall. Still shooting this great powder. AJ.

[Eric Krewson]

A great friend gave me all his BP stuff on his death bed, he still had a lot of powder from the 70s that I still use.

He had one can of Goex 3F with an after market gag sticker on it. I used my thumb to cover up the risque disclaimer as this is a family site.

The cleaned up version with the other rhyming stuff left out;

It is good for fits, colds, moles and cures warts in the first stages.

Guaranteed not to rust, bust or collect dust or your money back double it the doctor passes these parts again.

[hanshi]

A few years ago I finished shooting up a can of Dupont 3F bought in 1969.  I've still got an unopened can of Dupont 4F that will get used...eventually.  BP doesn't go bad unless it gets really wet; the stuff is uber stable.  The newer Goex 4F may be sifted a little finer but I haven't ordered any 4F in years; a little goes a loooong...way.

[Daryl]

In the later 1970's I finished shooting off a keg or American Deadshot Rifle Powder. Since the American Deadshot plant blew sky-high in 1898, this was old powder- not quite 100years old, though, at that time. The powder was the best powder I had ever used. It was VERY Accurate in my Bauska .50 slug barrel and quite clean burning compared to the GOEX of the day. I shot a number of 1" to 1 1/2" groups with it at 100yards using match-type aperture sights.

So - 30 year old powder - is it good - could be?

If it works well, if so use it.

Seems to me, only the phony powders like Pyrodex chemically degrade. They degrade in loss of power.  Not so, with BP.

[Hungry Horse]

I've got four or five Dupont red oval powder cans, a couple with the made in USA on them, and the rest without. I was told the ones without the legend were made before WWII. I also have a bright metal square can with a homemade label that says DuPont 3F, but I don't know if this is a DuPont can, or a recycled can from another manufacturer. The square can does have the same small cap as the red oval cans, so maybe it is an old DuPont can. Do any of you know anything about this type of can?

  Hungry Horse

[Darkhorse]

I had a similar can of goex 4f..


Last year I got a new can.   


I noticed the new stuff does indeed seem to ignite quicker. In my mind, there's. I questions about it. 

The powder itself seems different too IMO. The old stuff was more granular and bigger...The new stuff is more powder like.


The old stuff still burns...But doesn't seem to have the same zip to it...

I think this observation is most likely caused by newer manufacturing techniques than by powder going bad. As long as it's stored properly I consider it still good. But the newer stuff may be a better powder that the old but thats' not because it's old. You can always buy new.

[Mauser06]

Very well could be the difference isn't the actual powder but the manufacturing and grain size.

The old stuff ignites and does its job..Like I said, just seems slower and not as fast. 

The powders do look completely different so I'd imagine that is the difference.

[T*O*F]

30 year old powder doesn't take very long to get that old.  Seems like I just bought it yesterday

[retired fella]

I acquired a half keg of Dupont back in the mid  1970's and at that time it was probably 15 years old.  I used that until 1990 and didn't use the rest until just a few years ago.  Still was good at 60 years old.

[gumboman]

Thanks fellas. Looks like consensus is if it is dry it is good. Think I will get a can of Swiss Null-B and compare.

[bob in the woods]

I don't know which surprised me more ; the realization that I've had some powder for 30+ years, or the price stickers that are still on the cans !     The cans have character ...unlike the plastic containers we get today.

[kudu]

The Bevel Brothers did a test on old and new powder for velocity on a bench gun using powder back to the 1920s I think? and found that powder that has/was stored normal nothing special just
kept dry, (that was old )shot very well and could see no degragation in its performance.

On a different Note they also had found 100 year old rifles that were still loaded and thought that
with a good ignition they would have fired. when pulling the ball and patch thru a rusty old bore the powder in the breech was still good.

So I guess we should watch out for those old attic guns and Over the Fire place hangers.

I know this is off the topic but in the 1970s my uncle found a modern gun huting in the UP of Michigan that was leaning against a tree that was real rusty. he took it home and discovered it was still loaded
he messed around with and get it back to just barely shootin shape it shot but not to well!
Its one of those guns with a lever on the bottom!

[Mad Monk]

I don't know which surprised me more ; the realization that I've had some powder for 30+ years, or the price stickers that are still on the cans !     The cans have character ...unlike the plastic containers we get today.

There is no comparison!

If the 4F you have came out of GOEX's Moosic plant it may be OK and then maybe not. That stuff sucked moisture out of the air like a sponge.  It was pure $#*! some years here in PA in our "flintlock" deer season after Christmas.  If the humidity was high you were constantly changed the pan powder while hunting.  In addition.  What passed for 4F was nothing but screening process tailings.  A lot of very fine particles that very quickly picked up moisture.  A lot of graphite.  If it was made during a drought when GOEX used their deep well you were lucky if a can would be good for more than 2 years.  Dixon had it come back where it would simply fail to ignite in the pan when you tripped the lock.  A lot of us gave up on the 4f and simply used 3F for a longer period of time between pan powder changes.

The Swiss Nul B is made specifically for flintlock lock pan powder.  High purity potassium nitrate and a low ash content charcoal makes it nearly immune to moisture in the air.  The high-purity potassium nitrate picks up only minute traces of moisture from the air until the R.H. hits about 92%.  Then picks up moisture but not enough to really slow it down.  It the lock pan it burns a lot faster and a lot hotter to give reliable ignition far beyond what Moosic made GOEX 4F was ever capable of.

All of those I dealt with loved the switch to the Swiss Nul B pan powder.  The Swiss Nul B is an actual grain size rather than tailings or floor sweepings.

[Marcruger]

I am with you Mad Monk.

My rifles get Swiss Null B in the pan.  Works like a dream no matter the humidity. 

I keep two brass primers in my gear full of Null B, as well as a tiny banded priming horn from Tim Crosby.  Inevitably, when I had one, I'd run it dry.  The brass ones don't take up much room, but they don't hold much either. 

Best wishes, and God Bless,   Marc

[Mad Monk]

I am with you Mad Monk.

My rifles get Swiss Null B in the pan.  Works like a dream no matter the humidity. 

When Petro-Explo took up the North American import contract for the Swiss powder importing I spoke with the man about a good pan powder.
Years before that I had looked at some du Pont Eagle brand sporting powder that dated back to the 1880s or 1890s.  Made at the original plant near Wilmington.  Playing with it as a flintlock lock pan prime in the basement.  I had read about fast hot burning sporting powders and this was more first chance to actually handle some.  In the basement with the light off I would trip the lock.m  With the Eagle brand powder I saw no light.  Just felt the heat when the powder burned in the pan.  But with GOEX 4F I could see the powder burn briefly and did not feel heat from it.  The inability to see any light when the Eagle brand flashed in the pan indicated the light produced was there for less time than the eyes can see it.  So what I saw in the Eagle brand backed up what I had read about these fast hot powders from the late 19th century.  From my testing I knew the Swiss was even faster and hotter than the Eagle Brand.  In the right grain size the Swiss would be a fantastic pan powder.  very fast, very hot and nearly immune to water.  So my buddy at Petro-Explo talked to the Swiss and they knew exactly what was needed.  About 6 months later I was sent a can to look at in my flinters.   

[Daryl]

It's quite simple, really- try it, if it works as a priming powder, it works. If it doesn't work well enough - give it to a competitor.

[oldtravler61]

  ROTFLMBO....Now Daryl that's funny...!  Oldtravler

[JCKelly]

I believe it was this year that Our Gov't detonated a stack of Civil War artillery shells found in Charleston.
Black Powder lasts longer than do we.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

I had a large can of US govt black powder (2F) from well before WWII that I used with my smoothbore for a while until I got the "right" powder. Shot well, but I did have to break up the clumps. Sold the can and contents to a collector. It was a five pound can/keg and brought a very high price. I won't be buying powder for a while.

[OldMtnMan]

gumbo................You need to shoot more 

[gumboman]

gumbo................You need to shoot more 

OldMtnMan. Many thanks for your input. Of all the many good suggestions made regarding my question, your is the most on target. You have indeed identified the primary problem in a succinct way. I simply do not shoot enough. I will endeavor to rectify the problem starting tomorrow. Recently, I have had the desire to shoot my Issac Haines 54 but other priorities have intervened. Tomorrow I will burn some of my 30 year old 4f priming powder. Thank you sincerely for your intervention.