Author Topic: Flint position?  (Read 7014 times)

Offline Skychief

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Flint position?
« on: April 13, 2017, 05:45:35 AM »
Do you beleive that a resting flint should point right at your vent?  If so, and your flints are oriented in the cock for this, do you need to "shim" the rear underside of your flints to accomplish this?  If not, does the geometry of your lock naturally promote such an alignment?  Mine don't.

I find my flints on my guns want to rest forward of their vents.  I've used wood, extra leather and so forth to shim them in a way to get them to line up with the vent when at rest.  When found this, I think the angle of the flint to the frizzen is awkward to say the least.  That's why I ask.

Any pictures welcome.

Look forward to your thoughts on this as I'm hoping to speed up ignition on one particular gun and am running out of ideas.

Thanks and best regards, Skychief

Offline EC121

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2017, 06:23:02 AM »
The flint should go to the center of the pan or at least the general area.  The flash radius should cover any variations in the vent position.  I doubt if the sparks can aimed any closer than the pan area.  Try grinding the pan larger to catch more sparks.  Doesn't have to be very deep.  Just enough to hold a little more prime around the edge of the pan.  How big is the touchhole?
     You might also try flashing the pan without loading the rifle to see how fast it ignites.  If the pan flashes quickly, then the load ignition problem is somewhere else. 
Brice Stultz

Offline Skychief

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2017, 06:26:54 AM »
It's drilled to 1/16" EC.  Thanks.

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2017, 06:28:04 AM »
I think that is the desired position for a resting flint but I don't worry much about it when setting a new flint. I am more concerned with how high on the frizzen the flint strikes and that the flint doesn't touch the frizzen at half cock. I will shim both under a flint and behind one also to get a desired positon.
I shoot the LH large silers and they are very forgiving. Recently I was doing some shooting with my .40 and I started with a sorta odd ball shaped flint, just what I want for general practice. I ended up shimming both the rear and bottom and also flipping it over. When I had to change to a better shaped flint for turkey hunting, that odd flint was still making enough sparks to fire the rifle. But the flint itself was just a nub and was nowhere near pointing at the TH at rest but as long as I kept it scraping the frizzen it shot like a charm.
When I get a new lock one of the things I check for is that the flint points at the TH when at rest, or really does it point at the center of the pan. If it does then I never worry about it again.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2017, 06:29:09 AM »
I do not believe this "rule". The position at rest, after all the sparks have been made, means nothing.  There is even a potential problem with the flint positioned thus.  The jet from the vent can blast the flint edge.  I have a fine-sparking lock that will dry fire and throw sparks for dozens of cycles but flints don't last long with live firing.  Just happens the flint edge is lined up with the touch hole.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2017, 05:28:39 PM »
 :D :D... Some of the best sparks I've gotten are from broken arrowheads I've picked up in fields here in Tennessee... the black ones work best....The Indians who made them put a great bevel on them...good & sharp...I just make sure they strike the friz square and it trips right and throws good sparks...clamped in jaws with leather...I don't believe the old "longhunters" got too technical either...just used what was available, adjusted to spark good, and fired it....If the rock strikes the friz square and trips it, sparks will fall into the pan........
 


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Offline EC121

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2017, 06:00:38 PM »
Another thought just occurred to me.  (At my age it happens once in a while. ;-)0).  If the frizzen is too soft, ignition can also be a bit slow.  Does the frizzen feel smooth or grabby when you move you finger over it.  If all else fails, a good follow through will help compensate for slow ignition.   
Brice Stultz

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2017, 06:50:39 PM »
The most reliable flintlock I own got that way with modifications I made after mentioning ignition problems on this board years ago. Once I drew some of the hardness from the frizzen ( I'm lucky I didn't break it, it was glass hard) and extended the forward edge of the pan a little, it is as reliable as a really good cap gun, and more reliable than anything less. At a club event where the public is invited to come and shoot our guns, it shot sixty four consecutive shots without a misfire.

  Hungry Horse

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2017, 08:19:50 PM »
Skychief:  I would like to see what lock you are using...I cannot think of any lock from reputable lock makers that is fussy, though some work better bevel up/down.  Chamber's round faced English lock comes to mind.  Ignition is faster on this lock with bevel up, on my two longguns with this lock.
Lyman and T/C flintlocks are of poor design...the cock is too small for the lock and the flint strikes the frizzen at about the half way mark.  Bevel down is the only way to go with these locks, and that shoots the sparks forward of the pan, when there are sparks.  Frustrating locks...
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Online Daryl

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2017, 08:27:47 PM »
I've had two locks that at full throw, point the flint down into the pan slightly too far. The blast from the vent actually burns off flint, making them smooth and roundish on the left bottom corner as the flint gets burned away.
Daryl

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Offline EC121

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2017, 09:58:09 PM »
I've had the same thing happen.  Usually when the flint is too big for the lock, because I am too lazy to get the correct size.
Brice Stultz

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2017, 10:10:17 PM »
Getting the lock to throw sparks just about any place in the pan proper and not gouging the frizzen face would be a good position.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2017, 12:56:08 AM »
I've had two locks that at full throw, point the flint down into the pan slightly too far. The blast from the vent actually burns off flint, making them smooth and roundish on the left bottom corner as the flint gets burned away.

Durs Egg?
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Offline hanshi

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2017, 01:58:05 AM »
The blast from the touch hole does seriously dull the flint edge next to it.  Some of the locks I have DO go that deep toward the pan.  Others have cocks that stop well away from the pan.  Then there are those that lie in between the two.  But regardless of where the cock stops with the flint, I've never noticed any difference in speed or reliability of ignition. 
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Offline Skychief

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2017, 03:49:20 AM »
Appreciate all the replies all.  Daryl, I want to say it's an L&R lock appropriately sized for a Fowler.  I'll try to double check the manufacturer when I can.

Best regards, Skychief

Online Daryl

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2017, 05:54:25 AM »
I've had two locks that at full throw, point the flint down into the pan slightly too far. The blast from the vent actually burns off flint, making them smooth and roundish on the left bottom corner as the flint gets burned away.

Durs Egg?

Yes - good guess on the pistol,  as well as the L&R Dickert on the .45 rifle.

My Hunkeler 20 bore has a Siler and it burns the flint as well, with a long flint.
Daryl

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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2017, 05:59:10 PM »
Do you beleive that a resting flint should point right at your vent?  If so, and your flints are oriented in the cock for this, do you need to "shim" the rear underside of your flints to accomplish this?  If not, does the geometry of your lock naturally promote such an alignment?  Mine don't.

I find my flints on my guns want to rest forward of their vents.  I've used wood, extra leather and so forth to shim them in a way to get them to line up with the vent when at rest.  When found this, I think the angle of the flint to the frizzen is awkward to say the least.  That's why I ask.

Any pictures welcome.

Look forward to your thoughts on this as I'm hoping to speed up ignition on one particular gun and am running out of ideas.

Thanks and best regards, Skychief

I have never "shimmed" a flint and I started shooting FLs in the 1960s.
Where do the sparks land?
If they go right in the pan its probably working OK.
I have significantly improved a lock's speed by tipping the cock down a few degrees to change the angle to the frizzen. I have also SLOWED a lock doing this and had to put angle back where it was.
Now. Are the springs weak? Does the spring pressure increase or stay the same as the cock moves to the at rest position? If the force drops too much the flint drag on the steel may slow the cock fall and slow pan opening and so sparks to the pan.
Do you get white or pale yellow lively sparks? Sometimes some chrome and/or molybdenum alloy gets into the castings and this will not spark well on a belt sander much less in the lock. So its could be that the frizzen needs to be faced with 1070-1095.
Does the cock travel all the way down? There are otherwise good locks on the market that have been changed for whatever reason so the the cock, IMO, stops too soon. If the mainspring is well away from the bottom of the lockplate when the cock is at rest there may be issues here. The sparks don't just fall into the pan. They need to forced there by the flint as it comes off the bottom of the frizzen. If most go to the front of the pan the frizzen may be opening too soon of the cock stops too soon or has the wrong angle.
The frizzen spring needs to be string enough the give the flint a good bite on the steel.
Is the steel to hard? Sometimes a REALLY hard steel will not spark well. I would put it in a preheated 375 degree oven for an hour (degrease well). Make SURE its not over 380 degrees. I use TWO oven thermometers to check the temp.

We also must remember that a large percentage of the original rifles we see were RECONVERTED the flint or otherwise changed with whatever parts could be found the kinda sorta fit. This was done to (take your choice) replace a missing lock or parts, correct a really ugly conversion, make the rifles worth more on the collector market or to give the collector more FL rifles for his collection. As a result the parts used may have very poor geometry from the standpoint of actually working.  So trying to recreate the cock/frizzen/pan on and "original" rifle can be a mistake. I would also point out that some of the cheap locks from Birmingham England at least in the 19th c had very poor geometry and were made to sell really cheap. As a result we need to use locks of proven utility or those made of castings from a GOOD original lock that has not been "improved" or changed but someone at the foundry or by the "lock maker" for some unknown reason.

Dan
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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2017, 11:45:18 PM »
I liked Dan's comment saying that if the sparks land right in the pan, it's probably OK. Here is a great lock putting lots of sparks in right place.

Regards,
Pletch

 
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Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2017, 01:41:26 AM »
 Bet that un will set a wet mule on fire!
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Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Flint position?
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2017, 04:31:24 AM »
Skychief:  I would like to see what lock you are using..I cannot think of any lock from reputable lock makers that is fussy, though some work better bevel up/down.  Chamber's round faced English lock comes to mind.  Ignition is faster on this lock with bevel up, on my two longguns with this lock.
Lyman and T/C flintlocks are of poor design...the cock is too small for the lock and the flint strikes the frizzen at about the half way mark.  Bevel down is the only way to go with these locks, and that shoots the sparks forward of the pan, when there are sparks.  Frustrating locks...

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