Author Topic: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia  (Read 5702 times)

AGUNCOLLECTOR

  • Guest
Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« on: April 20, 2017, 10:11:17 PM »
DTS
YOU HAVE  A NICE WEBSITE AND COLLECTION!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 11:15:22 PM by Ky-Flinter »

AGUNCOLLECTOR

  • Guest
Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 10:28:48 PM »
DTS
Do you know the year your Hawkins was made?
How common was his use of a pistol grip?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 11:15:50 PM by Ky-Flinter »

Online D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10544
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2017, 12:28:36 AM »
I have been making Hawken rifles for about 42 years.  The pistol gripped one went to Alaska (North, the rush is on!) in 2015.  There are three original pistol gripped Sam Hawken rifles extant, that I am aware of, and have reference images of.  They are indeed uncommon, and likely rare even in their day.  Thanks for the kind words.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Martin S.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2017, 01:05:59 AM »
Are you still making rifles for sale?

Beautiful work!

AGUNCOLLECTOR

  • Guest
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2017, 02:26:29 AM »
DTS

YOU DO GREAT WORK!

ARE YOU AWARE  WHICH YEARS HAWKINS MADE HIS FIRST RIFLE WITH A PISTOL GRIP.
AS THIS IS OF SPECIAL INTEREST TO ME.

Offline Smoketown

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2017, 04:29:02 PM »
Before someone mentions it ... Cap Lock ON used to be the PROPER way messages were sent ...

Or,

Slightly modified ...      ;D

Del Gue: [Del and Jeremiah have run into a Flathead scouting party] He wants to know if you are the great warrior who builds pistol grip Hawken rifles. They be big medicine and you are too, if you be that man.

Jeremiah Johnson: [the Indian begins talking in a very loud voice] Say, why's he yellin'?

Del Gue: Scared of ya.      ::)


Cheers,
Smoketown


"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes an act of rebellion."
- George Orwell

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10241
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2017, 06:07:55 PM »
DTS

YOU DO GREAT WORK!

ARE YOU AWARE  WHICH YEARS HAWKINS MADE HIS FIRST RIFLE WITH A PISTOL GRIP.
AS THIS IS OF SPECIAL INTEREST TO ME.
I think Hawkins (little Jimmy) just hung out with Long John Silver. I don't believe he was involved in the gun trade.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Joe S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1869
  • the other Joe S.
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2017, 06:41:31 PM »
Granny Hawkins maybe,atleast one of her kin.Wonder if Josey Wales ever made good on that debt ???

n stephenson

  • Guest
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2017, 08:39:37 PM »
Mike , I believe Hawkins was working in Tennessee in the 1980s . I had many requests to help different hunters find out why their muzzleloader that was put up last year uncleaned , wouldn't work. When I asked what they had, almost every one had a 50 caliber Hawkins.    Hawkins  a very prolific maker indeed.

AGUNCOLLECTOR

  • Guest
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2017, 10:37:27 PM »

SORRY HAWKEN FANS FOR THE SPELLING MISTAKE!

THANK YOU ALL, FOR YOUR ENCOURAGING GIBBERISH!
YOUR WELCOMING REMARKS TO A NEWCOMER, ARE A GREAT INSIGHT INTO YOUR CLUB!

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10241
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2017, 12:50:28 AM »
I MEANT NO OFFENSE. AFTER 37 YEARS OF HAWKINS RIFLES IT GETS TO THE POINT OF MILD HUMOR. YOU GUYS CAN GO AHEAD AND TALK ABOUT HAWKINS GUNS ALL YOU WANT, MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO ME. :P
 YOU CAN THROW SOME HUMOR MY WAY ANYTIME YOU WANT, LIFE GETS A LITTLE DULL OTHERWISE.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Jose Gordo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 901
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2017, 12:53:13 AM »
AGUNCOLLECTOR

Besides Taylor, there are several people on this site who are particularly knowledgeable about Hawkin rifles.  Herb and DPharis come to mind, and there are certainly others as well.  If you started another thread with Hawkin in the title, perhaps they would respond.  Since you addressed this one specifically to Taylor, a lot of folks may not look at it.
Everything is harder than it looks. Except for silver. Silver is softer than it looks.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10241
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2017, 12:59:43 AM »
AGUNCOLLECTOR

Besides Taylor, there are several people on this site who are particularly knowledgeable about Hawkin rifles.  Herb and DPharis come to mind, and there are certainly others as well.  If you started another thread with Hawkin in the title, perhaps they would respond.  Since you addressed this one specifically to Taylor, a lot of folks may not look at it.
You might also consider "Hawken" in the thread title. ;) Even I have built a few Hawken rifles long ago, I found them difficult to do right, they ain't easy but when done right they are attractive guns.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Jose Gordo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 901
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2017, 01:04:57 AM »
LOL

So I can't spell.  But I am good looking.  Can't have everything Mike.
Everything is harder than it looks. Except for silver. Silver is softer than it looks.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10241
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2017, 01:43:32 AM »
Taylor makes a great Hawken, in fact he makes a great everything. I'd also contact Don Stith, Herb, Dan Pharris and probably more than a handfull of others that do a Hawken plains  rifle justice. I've always been a big fan of the original Modena Hawken as well. I have also handled several full stock original Hawken rifles that were eye openers in many ways. Nothing wrong with products from the original Hawken gun shop, although it would be nice to give the family their due justice by spelling their name correctly.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6202
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2017, 04:25:17 PM »
Taylor makes a great Hawken, in fact he makes a great everything. I'd also contact Don Stith, Herb, Dan Pharris and probably more than a handfull of others that do a Hawken plains  rifle justice. I've always been a big fan of the original Modena Hawken as well. I have also handled several full stock original Hawken rifles that were eye openers in many ways. Nothing wrong with products from the original Hawken gun shop, although it would be nice to give the family their due justice by spelling their name correctly.
I shot the first Hawken match at Friendship in 1968 with Tom Dawson's copy of the Medina(Modena) Hawken.
I finished 4th in that 130 yard offhand event.The wretched configuration of that stock gave me a new appreciation
for the Whitworth semi military and other English sporting/target rifles like the one recently acquired by Taylor.
The latest Muzzle Blasts has the beginning of an article by Bob Woodfill on this particular Hawken and will continue
next month with a "how to"on making a representation of it.The late (1971) Ed White of El Dorado.Illinois made at least
one copy of this gun and I think Don Stith is now offering a kit for it. I think I made two locks for him some time go.
Ed White had a machine shop class at a local high school mill semi finished plates for locks and I made the mechanisms for them.
I also agree that the correct spelling of the Hawken or anything else is not a bad idea.

Bob Roller

Offline Jose Gordo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 901
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2017, 05:26:39 PM »
"Chas. Winthrop Sawyer…says that the father of Jacob and Samuel Hawken was Henry Hawkins, an 18th century gunmaker of Lancaster, PA., who later was employed in the Harper’s Ferry Armory, and about 1808 moved to St. Louis and continued to make rifles there.  He says that the name was then spelled Hawkins, but pronounced Hawken, and that the sons adoped the latter spelling."

Outing: volume LXXVII October 1920-March 1921
https://books.google.com/books?id=-SQiAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA174&lpg=RA1-PA174&dq=samuel+hawken+spelling+name&source=bl&ots=lcquq-2P_3&sig=hI0vDlHnoqqng9OewQfu15FmPjg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjO9_b427rTAhVY-GMKHUdeCrAQ6AEIMDAC#v=onepage&q=samuel%20hawken%20spelling%20name&f=false


"The Hawken gun-makers of the Missouri frontier were Samuel T. and his brother Jacob, sons of H. Hawkins, who, in 1804, was the foreman of the Government arsenal at Harper’s Ferry.  The sons appear to have adopted the spelling “Hawken” for the name, and their guns were sometimes referred to as the “Hawkens” (Hawken’s) as well as “Hawkins”.  From St. louis and in due time from a shop in Independence, though beaver and caravan days, these two gun-smiths supplied the Northwest and Southwest with famous trust-worthy rifles, of which the trade-mark generally was “S.T. Hawken” (and on occasion, it is reported, “S.T. Hawkens”) on the lock plate."

Kit Carson Days 1809-1868 Revised Edition with new matter Edwin L. Sabin; 1935
https://books.google.com/books?id=LANtL9LL2oYC&pg=PA914&lpg=PA914&dq=samuel+hawken+spelling+name+hawkins&source=bl&ots=OnQmuvgRvh&sig=FrrJ2gS9TU6JcFuy0Qi2maq7GdU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA8q6f3brTAhUNx2MKHdOvCrQQ6AEINzAF#v=onepage&q=samuel%20hawken%20spelling%20name%20hawkins&f=false

“I don’t give a @!*% for a man that can only spell a word one way.”  Attributed to Mark Twain

Addendum: (Ha!  Look at that. This thing has a built in word sheriff!  We need to get one of the moderators to teach it to reject unapproved variants of Hawken.)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 06:49:07 PM by Jose Gordo »
Everything is harder than it looks. Except for silver. Silver is softer than it looks.

Offline Joe S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1869
  • the other Joe S.
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2017, 06:56:47 PM »
I was always under the impression that their father was Christian Hawken from Maryland and the original spelling of their name was Haken.In the old country Haken pronounced the same as Hawken and the k was added to get it pronounced correctly here.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10241
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2017, 07:46:17 PM »
I was always under the impression that their father was Christian Hawken from Maryland and the original spelling of their name was Haken.In the old country Haken pronounced the same as Hawken and the k was added to get it pronounced correctly here.
Me too. I've also seen it spelled a Hachen. Regardless, the business that was located in St. Louis spelled it Hawken. Of course back in 1920 things were different...... ;)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

n stephenson

  • Guest
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2017, 07:50:04 PM »
AGUNCOLLECTOR ,  I wasn't trying to offend you, just trying to have some fun with Mike. This is a REALLY  GOOD site to be on. More experience here than anywhere , for gun building, collecting , shooting, etc. Like anything else , take what you need and, leave the rest. Mike , the ones that are most frustrating to me is, when I take a fully carved , engraved , flintlock rifle I have just finished to town to show some friends. There always seems to be at least one dummy around that will say " I`ve got one of them  musket loaders at home " to which I respond " oh really, what kind"?   He says " it`s a Hawkins" then I say "nice"

Offline Jose Gordo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 901
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2017, 08:09:20 PM »
Mike and Joe S:

That post exhausted my entire knowledge of the subject.  In the interest of full disclosure, my scholarship is generally on par with my spellink. 

However I would like credit for having taken a full 3 minutes to research the topic on the infallible internet.  Beyond that, I am perfectly satisfied with Hawken.


Fat Joe
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 08:39:23 PM by Jose Gordo »
Everything is harder than it looks. Except for silver. Silver is softer than it looks.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6202
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2017, 09:06:47 PM »
I was always under the impression that their father was Christian Hawken from Maryland and the original spelling of their name was Haken.In the old country Haken pronounced the same as Hawken and the k was added to get it pronounced correctly here.

Haken is German for hook as in Hakenschaftkappe or hooked butt plate.

Bob Roller

Online smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5091
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2017, 11:35:58 PM »
Nicholes and his youn ger brother came from Switzerland. Nicholes's brothers name was Wlofgang Hachen, later to be Haga of the Reading area acording to Dr. Shumway.

Offline smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3537
  • Dane Lund
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2017, 01:53:00 AM »
Some people just can't take a joke!
In His grip,

Dane

Online D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10544
Re: Question for D. Taylor Sapergia
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2017, 05:45:41 AM »
I've been absent all weekend lads...to answer the question:  I have retired from making rifles for clients.  I appreciate the interest and other kind words.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.