Author Topic: Cleaning powder chambers  (Read 15981 times)

g2608671@verizon.net

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2017, 02:40:49 PM »
Interesting about the Balistol.  Along with Hoppes #9 I've been using it for years without any issues.

I sometimes hit the barrel with Break Free Power Blast and then brush / patch - repeat and then Balistol.

Thinking of trying compressed air (the stuff used to clean electronic found at Staples) in the process as well. Hoppes wet patch/ brush / dry
patch / COMPRESSED AIR BLAST - repeat and then Balistol........

I am not going to dismount the barrel at each cleaning.  Not into driving out pins.  Wedges would not be an issue, but I dread pin removal.

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2017, 04:51:17 PM »
JC, I like Ballistol for cleaning the outside of the gun, it does work well on wood and the outside of the barrel for just getting general dirt and grime off. . I have not had great success with it for cleaning and preserving the interior though. Like you, I got a lot of after rust. By the way, it was designed by the Germans during WW I I think as an all purpose cleaner/oil for their guns which of course would have been smokeless. According to Wikipedia, which is never wrong as we all know, it damages the seasoning in  the bores of black powder guns!
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 04:52:37 PM by deepcreekdale »
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Offline Scota4570

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2017, 07:40:28 PM »
The oil wars are funny to me. 

To be a contrarian I have been using 75% charcoal lighter, 20% ATF and a dollop of STP.  I bought an easy fill WD40 spray bottle for it.  For WD 40 appropriate tasks it works about the same as other light oily sprays.

I bought Balistol once, I find the stench obnoxious.  It is nearly 100% mineral oil, so is baby oil. There is an alcohol in it that allows it to mix with water.  That part stinks.  Some folks love it, I don't get it.  If it makes a person happy I won't argue the point.

For real preserving I am using a product called,"Fluid Film Rust & Corrosion Preventive Penetrant & Lubricant".  It contains lanolin. It is cheap and easy to find.   IT smells nice, works, and leaves my hands soft. 

For really long term, like barrels I am storing for future use I use real cosmoline, put on a hot barrel, and wrapped in plastic food wrap then butcher paper.   
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 01:50:24 AM by Scota4570 »

Offline hanshi

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2017, 08:29:32 PM »
According to Wikipedia, which is never wrong as we all know, it damages the seasoning in  the bores of black powder guns!


If that were only true there'd never be any rust problems.   8)
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Offline Marcruger

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2017, 04:10:55 AM »
Under a separate thread I am going to paste a link to a large evaluation of gun care lubes/preservatives.  The fellow was very thorough in his testing.  Being an engineer I appreciate his approach.  Ballistol did not come out so well in his testing.  Best wishes,   Marc

g2608671@verizon.net

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2017, 01:58:50 PM »
Under a separate thread I am going to paste a link to a large evaluation of gun care lubes/preservatives.  The fellow was very thorough in his testing.  Being an engineer I appreciate his approach.  Ballistol did not come out so well in his testing.  Best wishes,   Marc

Well, I may be switching back to good old Remoil.  Smells better than Balistol too.

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2017, 09:22:47 PM »
A long time ago I found a brass brush that was designed exclusively for cleaning a breach plug face\chamber.

It was a group of brass strands like a very stiff paint brush. Over time the straight downward bristles would round out to fit the contour of any breach. 

Clockwise turning while giving a good scrub kept the brush from coming lose from the cleaning rod.

I have not seen this brush on the market in a very long time but gladly picked up 3 of them way back when and am currently on the last one.  It fits into all of the small alcoves of my patent breach plugs and assures a squeaky clean job!

All of the talk about rust prevention has been answered many times here and I will always be a stickler with the time tested  RIG grease! ;)
Joel Hall

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2017, 10:09:36 PM »
It was about 10 years ago a guy came to me asking if I would debreech his gun and drill his anichamber out as he thought it too small. He had never had any ignition problems but wanted something larger so he could clean it. We unbreeched it and found it was 1/4 in dia. and drilled it out to 3/8. Funny thing was the inside of the 1/4 in. hole was as clean as could be. I asked him what he had been cleaning with and he said he couldn't get a patch down into the chamber but just used water, forcing it though, pumping it with a cleaning patch and drying it best he could and using wd40 after he had it as dry as he could get it. It was a winning method as he had a clean unrusted bore. He did spend alot of his time in a dryer climate which might have helped.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2017, 12:23:55 AM »
A long time ago I found a brass brush that was designed exclusively for cleaning a breach plug face\chamber.

It was a group of brass strands like a very stiff paint brush. Over time the straight downward bristles would round out to fit the contour of any breach. 

Clockwise turning while giving a good scrub kept the brush from coming lose from the cleaning rod.

I have not seen this brush on the market in a very long time but gladly picked up 3 of them way back when and am currently on the last one.  It fits into all of the small alcoves of my patent breach plugs and assures a squeaky clean job!

All of the talk about rust prevention has been answered many times here and I will always be a stickler with the time tested  RIG grease! ;)

They still make them. I use this one.

http://www.octobercountry.com/msm-breech-brush/

Offline yellowhousejake

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2017, 09:08:25 PM »
What have I learned from this?

The most important thing I can do is clean the rifle well. I currently, and have always, used a sucker tube over a drilled out nipple and flushed my barrel with clean hot water until the patches are no longer dirty. It seems that is enough. I did buy a 375 caliber mop to ensure I get a good coat of oil in the chamber after future cleanings.

I have tried many concoctions of cleaning fluids over the years but I always went back to just water. Maybe a bit of MOS or dish soap to act as a surfactent. If I forgot to add it, I didn't worry about it.

I will give the solvent shot in the bolster the morning I shoot a try. That should fix any left over oils my normal pre-first-shot-patch is missing.

Thanks everyone.

DAve

Offline Daryl

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2017, 06:16:17 AM »
Don't use hot water, please. It does not help the cleaning process and can cause damage that is accumulative.

If the maker of the Worlds most expensive rifles, who has been in business for 200 yards, says "USE COLD WATER ONLY FOR CLEANING BLACK POWDER FOULED GUNS" - I listen.  I am telling you all this, to help you avoid hurting your bores.  Since that day I switched from hot water to cold water, I have not FLASH RUSTED a bore. The said, use cold tap water only, then dry the bore, then use a water displacing lubricant, like WD40 to rid the bore of any residual moisture, then patch out and store.

I will add that if you live in an area of high average Hunidity, say over 60%, that perhaps you may want to use a better 'long term preservative' than WD40.  It has done it's job in removing or eliminating any residual moisture.  For those in the dryer climates, more protection is not normally required.

When I used hot water, 1972 through 1976 I flash-rusted my rifle's bore every time I cleaned it. Since I stopped using hot water that same year, I have not rusted a bore - they are all shinier than new when viewed with a bore light or if the plugs are removed.

A friend of Taylor's and I, insisted on using hot water.  After 15 to 20 years of use & due to that hot water usage, we (Taylor and I) had to lead-lap the bore to make it shoot-able again. The effects of flash rusting are accumulative as EXPLAINED by Holland And Holland of England. (not the same people as the new ML barrel maker who scabbed the famous name of H&H)

The bore of that rifle was pitted one end to the other.

This shooter only used black powder, no subs and he would not even have a beer when getting home of back to camp, without cleaning his rifle first. He was meticulous about cleaning the rifle FIRST before doing ANYTHING else. Of course, every time he cleaned it, the oil patch after drying came out with red rust on it.

You've been warned - so - do as you want. It's your barrel.

I will repeat, though, hot water is not needed nor does it do anything that cold water will not do as well.  Hot water can only hurt your barrel.  Some steels MAY be more susceptible to flash rusting than others, I do not know. I only know that when I followed what was written in the US magazines and Gun Digests, from 1972 through 76, I got flash rusting in my TC and the 'custom' Bauska barrels I experimented with.  After reading that letter from H&H in late 76, I stopped using hot water - NO MORE FLASH RUSTING and NO RUSTING AT ALL for the last 40 years of shooting these rifles and shotguns. I have used only cold water, and WD40 as moisture blaster and preservative.
 
Daryl

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Offline Daryl

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2017, 06:24:40 AM »
Quote
Only problem I ever had was w Ballistol. Bad rust took a LOT of elbow grease w steel wool, valve grinding compound etc.  Someone said Ballistol was still cleaning- BS red is iron oxide, RUST.

Huh? Rust? Waddya mean Rust?
I thought Ballistol was a Sophisticated Modern Cleaner good for everything from your molars to gun barrel?
Bought a can, have yet to use it.

Perhaps I will keep it that way. Just use Dasani for clean up at range,  before I go home.

Taylor and friend Ron both tried Ballistol here. Taylor thought perhaps his was contaminated as it was given to him in a non-commercial container. His barrel rusted over night. It was at a fall hunt and quite humid every day(rain).

Friend Ron bought a brand new can of Ballistol, used it and HIS barrel ALSO rusted over night. It was quite humid that year at Hefley, not in the single digits as normal- humidity in the rain, likely 75% to 85%.

Last Saturday we spoke with a visiting German fellow at our R&G Club's "Heritage Day".  He said he to, was a black powder shooter.  Taylor asked him about Ballistol and he said pretty much the same thing as Dphar - who said do not use a water soluable oil as a rust preventative as the water soluble oil will absorb moisture from the air, then your gun rusts.  Actually the German fellow looked at us rather strangely when asked this and said "NO - never, you gun will rust".  How or why some guys get away with it, perhaps they live in VERY dry climates.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 07:11:28 PM by Daryl »
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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2017, 04:40:51 PM »
Daryl................What always bothered me about WD-40 is it's a petroleum product. It's well known that we shouldn't mix petroleum with black powder.

What's your take on this?

Offline yellowhousejake

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2017, 05:55:25 PM »
Don't use hot water, please. It does not help the cleaning process and can cause damage that is accumulative.


In 40 years of cleaning ML firearms I have never experienced flash rusting from cleaning with hot water from the tap. I only use hot water becuase it helps the soap/surfactant to mix. I agree it does nothing to break down the fouling.

I have also used petroleum products with no evil goo being created. I've used commerical mixtures, "secret" solutions, expensive blends of space age technology. None harmed my firearms, none cleaned any better than water. A sucker tube and flushing the bore has always worked as well, and sometimes better, than anything else I have done.

I have been hesitant to use WD-40 as my experience with it has not been good as anything other than a door-squeek-stopper, but as a water displacer it seems popular. I might add it as a middle step before oiling this summer. I can still learn something from others.

DAve

Offline Daryl

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2017, 07:20:05 PM »
Daryl................What always bothered me about WD-40 is it's a petroleum product. It's well known that we shouldn't mix petroleum with black powder.

What's your take on this?

I don't try to mix WD40 with black powder fouling nor do I try to use it as a patch lube - THAT is where you should not try petroleum oils as they do not mix with BP fouling.

I use WD40 when the bore is clean & dry - clean steel likes WD40.  The WD40's purpose is simply to get rid of any residual moisture that could be left in nooks, crannies around the plug's face and barrel, aund corners in a bolster type breech where the patch cannot reach, just as H&H said to use it, as well as a preservative for this dry-ish climate. 

 Sometimes before I load the first shot (if only a week between usage, I run a patch down the bore and out to remove any oil that still might be in the bore.  That patch usually comes out with just a tich of oil on it, and as clean as a whistle, just as it did when patching out the excess WD40 after cleaning and oiling - no grey whatsoever.  I also store my ML guns muzzle-down, so there is never a plugged nipple or vent.
Daryl

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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2017, 07:33:22 PM »
Daryl............I use the flush method and do admit to using hot water. After running clean patches down the bore to dry it off after flushing. I turn on a burner on the stove (electric) I hold the breech end over the heat to dry up any moisture left in that area. Not sure i'm doing any good, but it makes me feel better.


Could you do me a favor? I'm an old crow set in his ways, but there's a small part in my brain that's still open to learning new things. Can you post a step by step of the whole process you do from shooting your last shot to taking the next shot whenever you shoot next? Every little step, so we know what you do from beginning to end.

Thanky.  :)

Offline hanshi

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2017, 09:11:51 PM »
Yes; hot water can cause problems with rust.  I use tap water that I keep a couple of plastic jugs filled with in my cleaning room; just cold tap water.  Along with my persistent nature, cold water gets those bores clean.  I also use denatured alcohol and WD40 in my cleaning process.  If I need to quick dry any part I have a $2 thrift store hair dryer.  The last step is using Barricade or Break Free CLP for rust protection.  One thing I consider a must is to monitor each rifle bore a couple of times the following week and at least every two or three weeks after that.

And petroleum oils are fine in BP gun bores; just not mixed with fouling or powder.  Before shooting I always run a dry patch or two down the bore and "dent pick" the flash hole.  The lock is wiped off with alcohol and the whole ball of wax takes maybe one and a half or two minutes (I'm congenitally slow).
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2017, 01:18:10 AM »
Daryl............I use the flush method and do admit to using hot water. After running clean patches down the bore to dry it off after flushing. I turn on a burner on the stove (electric) I hold the breech end over the heat to dry up any moisture left in that area. Not sure i'm doing any good, but it makes me feel better.


Could you do me a favor? I'm an old crow set in his ways, but there's a small part in my brain that's still open to learning new things. Can you post a step by step of the whole process you do from shooting your last shot to taking the next shot whenever you shoot next? Every little step, so we know what you do from beginning to end.

Thanky.  :)


Pete, please read the text first.

A minute or two before loading my rifle for the video, I had just fired the last shot on the trail. Someone said, lets make a movie of you and Ross loading and shooting.  Here it is. Neither of us and actually no one we shoot with, ever has to run a wet patch down the bore to 'clean' or 'wipe' it before loading the next one.

Here is a step by step loading procedure.  This video was taken at the end of the day's shooting. I had fired 40 to 55 shots that day- simply loading as you see here, after every shot- no wiping done as no wiping needed.  There was no change in the bore's condition after the second shot, due to using a .0225" (10 OUNCE denim) patch and .445" ball in the .450rifle. Once loaded but not primed, I wait for my turn, step up to the line, prime and fire.   No wiping at any time is done. The fouling from the last shot is wiped from the bore by loading the next shot.
After the shot, I step back away from the shooting line and re-load just as you see here. Due to using a water based lube, I was using 65gr. 3f GOEX.

In this loading video, I already have a patch laying on the muzzle, with a ball centered on the patch.  I use the short peg on the starter to push the ball down with one blow of the hand, then turn to the long peg on the starter which puts the ball down 6" or so - with one blow of the hand.  The rod then successively pushes the load down onto the powder.  Note, I put the hole in the starter's head on then end of the ramrod and smack it one time.  That sets the ball on the powder with the same force- every time. I found if I did not do this, meaning only pushing the ball down to the powder, but without the little compression 'slap', I recorded higher spreads between shots and 100fps lower average speed. The last slap to add slight compression of the powder evened the shot velocity spreads and increased the velocity.  This of course, is due to the more efficient burning of the powder. THe BP cgt. shooters know, this, the ML shooters should as well.



Over the years, I have noticed some guys simply cannot believe this, so perhaps
this year we'll make another video, of shooting then loading and shooting again.
Really- none of us EVER has to wipe a bore while shooting. The 50th or 90th load,
loads as easily as the first.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 11:55:29 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2017, 03:55:34 AM »
A misunderstanding Daryl. I was asking about the cleaning procedure. From your last shot of the day until your next shot whether it's the next day or next month.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2017, 08:50:21 PM »
SRY - my mistake.

Once I get home and after some time, decide to clean the rifle or smoothbore, I remove the barrel (and it's nipple on a cap gun) and lock and set the stock leaning between the pegs sticking out from the side of my bench so it

or they cannot fall over.

I grab a handful of flanellette patches, WD40 can and cleaning rod with jag, along with a couple old towels used specifically for drying the barrel and wiping off the lock.

I fill a stainless bucket about 3 quart size & head with water from the cold tap out to the lower basement entry in the carport, wet everything down, lean the barrel or barrels against the door jam, pick up the old toothbrush

 (lock cleaning toothbrush) on the step beside the door and wet then brush off all the fouling from the lock. Once the lock is clean, I blow of the excess water with either my own breath, or

 compressed air., give it a shake or two, blow it off again then set it in the sun if THAT is shining, to dry further.

I shove the barrel, breech-down into the bucket of water. Wet a patch in the water, then double it and place it over the muzzle.  If I am cleaning the 48" barrel, I step up on the second step -

makes it easier to reach the muzzle with the patch pumping water.  After about 15 to 20 strokes allowing the water to come into the bore all the way to the patch at the muzzle - you can hear it

 sucking into the bore through the vent or nipple seat and feel it bump against the jag when it hits the patch, then push down hard, flushing the water out of the vent or nipple seat, up/down

/up/down - 15 or so times.  The water, if you are using a tight-enough ball and patch combo will only have a little colour - grayish.  Now, if you've fired 50 to 100 shots without wiping, there will be

 more accumulated fouling in the 'chamber' area that the patched ball never touches. Because of that, the water will be darker.  Once I am satisfied the barrel is clean - it will or should be after 15

 or 20 strokes if it is a smooth barrel, without pits.  If it has pits, you will see the patch losing it's integrity from wear cause by the pits. It will be 'ratty' on the sides. This will show with an old

barrel, or perhaps one that has been shot with Pyrodex.  After removing the rod and cleaning patch from the bore and setting the rod aside, I put my thumb over the muzzle, pull the barrel out of

the bucket, turn it around and let the water inside pour out of the muzzle into the bucket.  I then use a towel to wipe down the outside of the barrel and set it aside.  I then go get the lock out of

the sun give it another wipe down if there is any moisture on it, then spray it all over with WD40 so the excess flows off the lock into the water bucket. I give it a shake and set it down on one of

 the towels.  I then dry patch the barrel with doubled flannellette patches - even after the first sometimes, and definitely after the second, you can feel the patch starting to drag on the way out.

This shows the bore is almost dry.  4 patches are usually used and there will be gray normally on these patches - never any red.  If you set these patches out overnight, they will show red in the

morning or by the next day due to the iron oxides pulled off the dry bore by the patch.  The last one, whether it's the 4th or 5th, will be very hard to pull out due to the dry bore. Some barrel

steels I have noticed, show more oxides from the bore than others.  Once the bore is dry, I spray WD40 down the bore using the red straw that comes with each DW40 can - liberally sprayed.  I

 then run a clean doubled patch down the bore hard, forcing the excess WD40 in the bore to blast it out the vent or nipple seat.  This spray will last for 2 or 3 "pumps" - remove the patch and it is

 still as clean (no colour added from the bore) as it was going in - it is only wet with WD40.  I wipe down the outside of the barrel, then dump the bucket of dirty water, pick up the parts and head

 inside with the bl. and lock (and cleaning stuff).  I wet a cleaning patch with water or shooting lube, and wipe the fouling from the stock/s around the lock area, then use the WD40 barrel patch to

 wipe over the tang it the barrel is hooked. I check the lock for excess oil and if there is some, wipe and blow it off.  Reinstall the barrel (wiped down with the WD40 patch) with keys or pins.

 Reinstall the lock and wipe the stock off head to toe with a clean towel.  I then store then muzzle down in the rack, in the gun storage room.

Man - takes a long time to type it out - cleaning a rifle barrel and lock - all of the above, takes about 10-15 minutes tops to accomplish. The shorter the barrel, the less time it takes due to shorter

 strokes and easier handling.  I think my Musketoon(1861 Enfield) takes perhaps no more than 6 or 7 minutes to disassemble, clean and reassemble.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 08:57:31 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2017, 10:45:05 PM »
Thanks a lot, Daryl. We're doing the same thing, except I use hot water and no WD-40. I'm going to try your way.

What about when you're ready to shoot again? Do you run an alcohol patch down the bore to get rid of the WD-40? What about the breech channel? Do you fire a couple of caps to dry out any WD-40, or just dry it in general? I know some guys will pour alcohol down into the breech channel before shooting.

I assume you're using a liquid patch lube like Lehigh of Mr Flintlock? It's the only way I can shoot without swabbing. My hunting lube is either mink oil or bear tallow. I need to swab almost every shot with it, but I like it because it stays soft in cold weather.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2017, 09:14:38 PM »
I sometimes run a dry patch down the bore before loading a cleaned rifle, IF there has beena short period of time between cleaning the rifle and shooting again, such as a week of less,

as at Rendezvous.  I've never tried the alcohol patch as I do not see or have seen nothing detrimental after using a dry patch.  With a cap lock, I fire a cap, muzzle pointed at a blade of grass of

weed-leaf to see it move. With the flinter, I look at the vent - if plugged with oil. I blow through the vent to blow the oil into the bore, then wipe the bore and re-check the vent for being plugged.

If it is open, I load her up.

For hunting using Mink Oil or Neetsfoot Oil I do not have to wipe at all for the next or 10th shot after the first.  I assume from this my patches might be thicker or I'm using larger balls in ratio to

the bore size. I use WWWF + a bit of oil for trail walks.  Always an oil or grease-type lube for hunting, as noted, Neetsfoot or Mink.
Daryl

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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2017, 09:57:40 PM »
Thanks, bud.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2017, 11:57:53 PM »
You are most welcome, Old Mtn. Man.
Daryl

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Re: Cleaning powder chambers
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2017, 03:51:45 AM »
Years ago someone told me that WD 40 was derived from fish oil and not petroleum, can any one square me/us away on that?