Author Topic: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.  (Read 6358 times)

Offline mulemauler

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Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« on: April 28, 2017, 03:16:31 PM »
Needing some help. I'm wanting to do a recreation of an 1860's vintage New York style rifle. TOW and others have buttplates very close but no one has a trigger guard even close. Does anyone here have the skill to cast these or know who does? It is German silver and originally cast not soldered together from sheet. Please feel free to PM me with details. I've watched videos on casting small parts but have no place to set up a furnace even if I was to build or get one.





Offline 45-110

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2017, 03:47:53 PM »
i have cast a few using charcoal and some form of forced air for the heat. a small crucible and foundry sand can usually be located in a larger city. then build a wood cope/drag. the whole technique is low tech and you can improve any part of the process as you go along. assemble a small sifter, some parting sand, small trowel, couple of dowels etc and you in business. also when doing the melt bank the coals up around crucible. if you have access to an old blacksmith forge with pump or crank blower so much the better.
best
kw

Offline FDR

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2017, 05:18:30 PM »
If you have a local dental lab try them.  They cast non ferrous metal all the time.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2017, 06:08:28 PM »
Looking for sand cast or lost wax?
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Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2017, 07:28:46 PM »
   Any jeweler has does custom work should be able to cast german silver. About half of them will have equipment large enough for it. The casting is not very expensive, but if you want to make an investment cast copy of something you need to make an RTV or rubber mold of it. That stuff is expensive and requires specialized equipment. I would guess about $500 to $800 to get it done. Good news is that once the mold is made you can put it into production easily. Likely fit 5 or 6 of these in a single flask. So it would cost about the same to make six as it would to make one. Keep one and sell the rest.

   Problem is that trigger guard is not very thick. The mold will make an exact duplicate, but you get a small amount of shrinkage in the casting. Then it gets even smaller after finishing. You could probably get a good one with an investment cast. Sand casting is a lot cheaper. They just use the original to make the casting mold. But that makes an impression that once again matches the original. Problem with sand casting is that it requires a lot more finish work than investment cast. You would end up with a trigger guard that is way to thin. Sand cast is not going to work.

   What I would recommend is carving a wax model. http://www.freemanwax.com/ferris-file-a-wax-carving-milling-waxes.html You would want the blue one. Some dealers have blocks any size you want, but it is probably easier to just get a couple one pound blocks and weld them together. Welding carving wax is pretty easy. Just use a hot butter knife. Get a block of wax and carve the trigger guard how you want it. You are not going to get an exact match carving by hand, but can get something as close as you can make it. If it is a flop, just melt melt down into a block and start over.

   Nice thing with carving wax is that it is what is used for lost wax investment casting. It is a direct cast. That cuts out the most expensive part. It is very easy to carve. It can also be used for a sand cast mold. Find a foundry before carving. Most big cities will have at least one. But you can always mail in the model. Email photos of the trigger guard then call and talk options for casting if you were to send in a finished wax model. Decide if you want to go with investment cast or sand cast. Foundry can help you decide on that. Need to know that before carving because once again, you lose metal in the finishing. If you carve the wax slightly larger than what you need, it will will finish off at the size of the original. Sand cast requires more finishing work so it need to be carved thicker than one for investment cast.

   If you send the original to a foundry they can male a wax model for you and send back a casting that will match it very nicely. Foundry can do a  3d scan, enlarge it just the right amount, then make a model with 3d printer. $$$$$$$$ If you want 500 of them, that is the way to go. Probably best to just carve it yourself. Tell the foundry to just cast it and send it back unfinished. Just be away that wax models are destroyed in the casting process.

   If you carve a wax model and have the foundry cast it, it will be expensive. But not unreasonable. Track of the Wolf has molds on hand and has the foundry cast a whole mess of them at once. A one-off is always going to cost more. Hard to say exactly what the cost would be. It costs a certain amount for money for a foundry to make a mold and do a pour. But they can do many pieces in a single mold. If they are already doing a german silver cast it is easy for them to add it in. If they are casting 100 pieces all at once and you only have 1 of them, you get to pay 1% of the cost. If it is something that do not do very often then you either wait until they do a run of german silver or you pay for the mold and pour all on your own. Local foundry is more convenient but if they don't do much with german silver it is going to be expensive. You can save a lot by looking around for a foundry that does lots of german silver.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2017, 07:37:08 PM »
Even the very simplest forms of casting are going to require a boat load of equipment. Unless you intend to do a lot of casting, it just isn't worth it. It is also extremely dangerous, not only from molten metal, but from the gases the process produces as well.
 By the way, that triggerguard has been done in the past. They were sand cast in yellow brass, and possibly German silver. But, I haven't seen one offered in that pattern in quite some time. They are a very late percussion design, and quite honestly there aren't that many builders building that period guns.

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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2017, 08:25:29 PM »
 I have done a lot of casting and still do some. But you have several problems. #1 is you need a pattern unless you don't care if your casing is undersized when finished.  #2 probably no dental lab or jeweler could cast it in one piece. Their equipment is not that large. #3  Very few if any foundries keep German silver on hand and it will take 2 or three times the amount that you think to do the job.  Suppliers do not sell measured amounts of metal. That means the caster will probably have to buy 20lbs of metal to do your trigger guard. $4 The sand cast part will be about 3% to 7% under size.  On top of that you will file off some more to clean it up. #5 A wax casting will cost three times as much because a mold and a wax must be made before it can be cast and 1 item is never cast. It is unwise to cast less than three because some castings may be defective.
 #6 The biggest problem is You will not be willing to pay for it.  Personally I would not cast this for less than $500.
  Some foundries today will not cast less than 200 castings.  The simplest and cheapest way is to fabricate one from sheet stock.  The type of rifle you want to build does not justify the cost.
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Offline Joe S.

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2017, 09:03:47 PM »
If you where going to make just one of these and sand cast was your route couldn't you take that guard and dip it in hot wax a few times to make it bigger?Then after you cast it clean it up your good to go size wise.

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2017, 10:33:49 PM »
For just one, might it be easier to fabricate it? 

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2017, 12:39:13 AM »
I can get it sand cast for less than $30.
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Offline mulemauler

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2017, 02:02:59 AM »
Thank you all for the interesting thoughts! Never thought of a dental lab.  I have no furnace or forge and no place to put one. Almost all trigger guards and butt plates I've used were sand cast so I know how much work they require. I'm more concerned with the shrinkage issue and the amount of material lost in the cleaning so lost wax would be my first choice, but I can live with it either way. I called all foundries in the area and none even cast German silver and would not consider doing so for less than 500 pieces. It is pretty rare that TOW or others do not have what I'm looking for so I really don't want to be in the casting business, just need 1 or 2. May never build another rifle like this one.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2017, 02:04:07 AM »
Send it to Mike Brooks--- fast.
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Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2017, 03:26:51 AM »
   There are number of places that sell german silver by the ounce. Getting small quantities is not a problem. You can even melt down old silverware. Most jewelers that do casting have equipment to handle a 8 inch flask. You can cast a piece about 6 inches long in that. Some can do larger. Pretty much the only way to get a good finished piece that is not too thin is to carve an oversize wax model. Make it in 2 or 3 pieces and it gets a whole lot easier and cheaper to get it cast. Then put it together with about a 1300 degree silver solder. If it is in smaller pieces any jeweler that does custom work can handle it. But a lot of jewelers do not do casting in house. Many of them send it off to a shop that does casting for them. Do a google search on jewelry casting service and you will find a number of them. If you provide the wax model and request no finish work the price might be around $100 to $200. Production shop is going to higher volume and larger castings than a local jeweler. But german silver is a weird one for them. You pay for the whole casting process yourself. Probably cheaper to do it in sterling silver. Foundry is going to be the cheapest if you can find one that does german silver on a regular basis and is willing to do a single piece.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2017, 05:28:22 AM »
 If you have to pay for someone to cast it in three pieces you might as well buy sheet and fabricate it.  You will have to solder it together anyway.  Don't forget. If you are going to get it cast you will need a lot more metal than the weight of the trigger guard.  Add the postage on all the stuff also. On line metals has the metal. What do you figure will be the value of that gun when finished?  If you find a cheap way let us know. A few years ago I offered a foundry $200.00 to cast 2 triggers if I supplied the waxes. He refused. I had to forge them. All he had to do was to tree them on another tree he was doing.
 
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Offline mulemauler

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2017, 05:41:00 AM »
I've talked to a number of jewelers but all they do are rings and coin sized pieces. Commercial foundries want to do large runs. I was told no one in Okla does German silver and would most likely have to go up north where they cat this for dairy equipment as it does not tend to hold bacteria like regular brass. Guy might have been blowing smoke my way. I've talked to several dozen people locally but no one has ever cast a triggerguard. Several have forged them from iron but that would not be true to the project.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2017, 06:11:49 PM »
 This is a photo of some that I cast about 5 years ago.  The pattern was fabricated out of steel. Then a mold was made and then the mold was wax injected. The waxes were encapsulated in Investment plaster and burned out in a burn out furnace for 13 hours. The flasks were lowered to 700° fro the casting temp.
 The flask is then placed on a vacuum table and the silver poured in at approximately 1800° .  You see the results.  As is these are worth about $1000.00 each because of the labor involved.
 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 06:12:39 PM by jerrywh »
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Offline Rolf

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2017, 07:06:39 PM »
Beautiful work Jerry. What type of gun are the guards for?

Best regards
Rolf

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2017, 07:18:30 PM »
 Dixie still sells the brass version of this guard. Theirs doesn't have the fancy finials on the extensions, but the rest is the same. This guard was offered in German silver at one time, but now only brass is listed.

  Hungry Horse

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2017, 08:03:14 PM »
Beautiful work Jerry. What type of gun are the guards for?

Best regards
Rolf
Rolf.
   Here is one of those trigger guards when it was finished and engraved. It went on a Double barrel french shotgun , Boutet style.
   
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:06:44 PM by jerrywh »
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Offline Rolf

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2017, 09:08:18 PM »
Thanks Jerry, breathtaking as allways. It's a treat to see Your work.

Best regards
Rolf

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2017, 10:47:07 PM »
This is a photo of some that I cast about 5 years ago.  The pattern was fabricated out of steel. Then a mold was made and then the mold was wax injected. The waxes were encapsulated in Investment plaster and burned out in a burn out furnace for 13 hours. The flasks were lowered to 700° fro the casting temp.
 The flask is then placed on a vacuum table and the silver poured in at approximately 1800° .  You see the results.  As is these are worth about $1000.00 each because of the labor involved.
 
Now, that's  practical...... ;) If making my guns were that hard I'd go get a real job. :P
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2017, 11:35:26 PM »
How about buying the brass guard, filing down the finials, capping them with sheet silver cut to resemble the silver guard, and having the guard silver plated. Just a thought.

  Hungry Horse

Offline David Rase

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2017, 12:45:48 AM »
https://www.riogrande.com/Product/nickel-silver-casting-grain/706008  Taking into consideration the sprue and runners you would probably need a minimum of $200.00 worth of casting grain, but it is available.  You would also need a new graphite crucible as you would not, at least I, want to cross contaminate a crucible used for brass.
David

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2017, 01:13:41 AM »
This is a photo of some that I cast about 5 years ago.  The pattern was fabricated out of steel. Then a mold was made and then the mold was wax injected. The waxes were encapsulated in Investment plaster and burned out in a burn out furnace for 13 hours. The flasks were lowered to 700° fro the casting temp.
 The flask is then placed on a vacuum table and the silver poured in at approximately 1800° .  You see the results.  As is these are worth about $1000.00 each because of the labor involved.
 
Now, that's  practical...... ;) If making my guns were that hard I'd go get a real job. :P
   Mike. Not if they sold for an average of $50,000.00
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Need help in casting a Trigger guard.
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2017, 01:54:55 AM »
This is a photo of some that I cast about 5 years ago.  The pattern was fabricated out of steel. Then a mold was made and then the mold was wax injected. The waxes were encapsulated in Investment plaster and burned out in a burn out furnace for 13 hours. The flasks were lowered to 700° fro the casting temp.
 The flask is then placed on a vacuum table and the silver poured in at approximately 1800° .  You see the results.  As is these are worth about $1000.00 each because of the labor involved.
 
Now, that's  practical...... ;) If making my guns were that hard I'd go get a real job. :P
   Mike. Not if they sold for an average of $50,000.00
There ain't nobody in this world that is going to pay 50K for anything I build....just a bit of reality from my end. :P
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?