Author Topic: hawken fever  (Read 4742 times)

Offline adam h

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hawken fever
« on: April 30, 2017, 04:42:21 AM »
hi all Adam here from northern mn I got a fever a while back so after a lot of research on this forum I purchased a hawken set from don stith
and decided to buld my own rifle. I have to get the barrel yet and was gonna get a barrel from fci barrels in 58 cal I have a question on what twist rate
to get and square or round bottom rifling.any suggestions
adam

Offline David Rase

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2017, 05:13:42 AM »
The last time I recommended a rifle twist, I was overruled by the vast majority of forum members.  To show what a good sport I am, I am going to go out on a limb and give this another shot.  How about 1-72? Square bottom rifling.   :)
David   
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 05:35:35 AM by David Rase »

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2017, 05:34:36 AM »
Good choice David, I have one from Jim Goodoien that is 1-75 square that shoots like a dream. The rifle does not the shooter.   :)

Offline alyce-james

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2017, 05:39:56 AM »
adam h; sir I had a Hawken. "Sharon" .54 cal. square bottom rifling, 1-72. As they say it was a tack driver. That was in the late 1970's early 1980's. Also my eyes were younger then. That's my position and I'm staying fast. I currently have round bottom rifling flintlock and like that design alot. Good luck on your selection. Have a great week end. AJ.   
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2017, 01:45:29 PM »
I'll be different. Here in Iowa I'd go with a 1 in 56 or the slowest I'd go would be 1 in 66. We don't have to shoot more than 50 yards to kill deer here so a big ol' slug of powder isn't needed. I had Hoyt make me a  44" .58 with a 1 in 56 and another 25" .58 with a 1 in 25. Haven't built either into a gun yet, like to get both done before fall....... ???
 Besides, I had to have a different opinion than Dave Rase. :)
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Offline Marcruger

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2017, 03:59:55 PM »
Good morning Adam,

Do a little research on the forums here and you'll see numerous threads on the subject. 

That said, there are some broad categories of answers for you. 

In general, a slow-twist like 1 in 72 from a good maker will shoot well with roundballs, but won't stabilize long heavy projectiles.  This worries me not as I only shoot traditional roundballs.  These slow twists are very forgiving about shooting well with various speeds and powder charges. 

The faster twist rate (like, say, 1 in 48) will stabilize longer projectiles, but will generally be fussier about what powder charge they'll group well with. Like working up a load for a modern rifle.  The down side is that your accuracy load may not be where you want to be on velocity. 

Others with more experience can correct me here as needed. 

As far as type of rifling, I will flatly state that in my experience with both, I'd go with flat bottom rifling.  There is no down side to flat bottom rifling.  As my competitive shooter friend noted, most competition guns on the firing line at Friendship are flat bottom rifled.  While some may say that round bottom rifling is easier to clean up, I can see no practical difference in personal experience.

Round bottom rifling?  I think, if folks are honest, they'd say that it looks cooler and looks more traditional.  I am not sure anyone will claim that a well-made round bottom from the same maker will predictably outshoot a well-made flat bottom. 

The down side is that some makers cut the round groove rifling really deep.  Too deep.  Again, I think this is so that the round bottom is really obvious to the eye.  The big downside to that is that it can be a pain-in-the bore to get it to seal with patch and ball.  You have to resort to really thick patching, and then try to cram in a fat ball to drive it to the bottom of the deep grooves.  To what purpose?  I don't know.  It can create a situation where you get gas blow-by cutting on your patches and erratic velocities and accuracy.  I had one round-bottom barrel that I never could get to shoot reasonably, even with a 5-under roundball and .020 denim patching.  Pain to load too.  Blown and gas cut patches all the time.  Daryl can give chapter and verse as he helped me try to find a combo for that  barrel that would work.  I had it rebarreled. 

That said, my competitor friend also has a Tip Curtis flinter with a Colerain round bottom rifled barrel.  The grooves are pretty shallow.  Maybe .010 to .012.  It loads and shoots great.  The round grooves are not very prominent or deep , and are therefore not very "visually interesting".  But it works correctly.

Yes, some round bottom rifles shoot well, and some can be made to seal a ball and patch combo easily.  My point is, since there is no down side to flat bottom rifling, save yourself possible misery and go flat bottom.  Or specify no deeper than .012 round bottom rifling and hope for the best. 

One last thing I'd suggest you at least take a look at: if Green Mountain has the configuration you are looking for, or if you can search one out on the internet, they make a darned fine shooting barrel.  Worth a look at least.  Not saying anything bad about FCI ! 

I hope this long-winded reply helps you a little.  I'm an engineer by trade, and my analytical brain thinks things through maybe a bit too much.

Best wishes, and God Bless,   Marc

Offline adam h

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2017, 04:23:37 PM »
thanks for the information it is close to what I was looking for
slow twist with a prb for bear and deer under a l00 yds
adam

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2017, 04:36:33 PM »
Good morning Adam,

Do a little research on the forums here and you'll see numerous threads on the subject. 

That said, there are some broad categories of answers for you. 

In general, a slow-twist like 1 in 72 from a good maker will shoot well with roundballs, but won't stabilize long heavy projectiles.  This worries me not as I only shoot traditional roundballs.  These slow twists are very forgiving about shooting well with various speeds and powder charges. 

The faster twist rate (like, say, 1 in 48) will stabilize longer projectiles, but will generally be fussier about what powder charge they'll group well with. Like working up a load for a modern rifle.  The down side is that your accuracy load may not be where you want to be on velocity. 

Others with more experience can correct me here as needed. 

As far as type of rifling, I will flatly state that in my experience with both, I'd go with flat bottom rifling.  There is no down side to flat bottom rifling.  As my competitive shooter friend noted, most competition guns on the firing line at Friendship are flat bottom rifled.  While some may say that round bottom rifling is easier to clean up, I can see no practical difference in personal experience.

Round bottom rifling?  I think, if folks are honest, they'd say that it looks cooler and looks more traditional.  I am not sure anyone will claim that a well-made round bottom from the same maker will predictably outshoot a well-made flat bottom. 

The down side is that some makers cut the round groove rifling really deep.  Too deep.  Again, I think this is so that the round bottom is really obvious to the eye.  The big downside to that is that it can be a pain-in-the bore to get it to seal with patch and ball.  You have to resort to really thick patching, and then try to cram in a fat ball to drive it to the bottom of the deep grooves.  To what purpose?  I don't know.  It can create a situation where you get gas blow-by cutting on your patches and erratic velocities and accuracy.  I had one round-bottom barrel that I never could get to shoot reasonably, even with a 5-under roundball and .020 denim patching.  Pain to load too.  Blown and gas cut patches all the time.  Daryl can give chapter and verse as he helped me try to find a combo for that  barrel that would work.  I had it rebarreled. 

That said, my competitor friend also has a Tip Curtis flinter with a Colerain round bottom rifled barrel.  The grooves are pretty shallow.  Maybe .010 to .012.  It loads and shoots great.  The round grooves are not very prominent or deep , and are therefore not very "visually interesting".  But it works correctly.

Yes, some round bottom rifles shoot well, and some can be made to seal a ball and patch combo easily.  My point is, since there is no down side to flat bottom rifling, save yourself possible misery and go flat bottom.  Or specify no deeper than .012 round bottom rifling and hope for the best. 

One last thing I'd suggest you at least take a look at: if Green Mountain has the configuration you are looking for, or if you can search one out on the internet, they make a darned fine shooting barrel.  Worth a look at least.  Not saying anything bad about FCI ! 

I hope this long-winded reply helps you a little.  I'm an engineer by trade, and my analytical brain thinks things through maybe a bit too much.

Best wishes, and God Bless,   Marc

The best shooting round ball rifle I ever had was a 58 caliber Bill Large barrel with a 1 in 44 twist.
The 1 in 72 was the military twist and it did stabilize the elongated Minie bullet quite well.
This heavy loading with a round ball is a modern innovation and the Medina (Modena) Hawken in
58 caliber had a flask with 4 or 5 position spout that dumped 85 grains maximum.

Bob Roller

Offline rich pierce

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2017, 07:14:41 PM »
As I understand it, the higher the velocity, the slower twist rate you need to stabilize the ball.  Lower velocity needs a faster twist.  I don't like heavy charges in a .58 or larger due to recoil so a 1 in 66 or faster would be my choice.  Many original European jaeger rifles have as fast as 1 turn in the barrel length.  I have an original .62 caliber barrel with about 1 in 28". Am guessing modest charges and short range for boar.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2017, 08:02:10 PM »
I have had (& still do) a .58 with 48" twist, 56" twist, 66" twist and 72" twist.  ALL of them were (or are) very accurate.  You simply need to feed them what they want.

The Hawken with 66" Large Barrel did not shoot well at 100yards, with less than 140gr. of 2F GOEX.

The Zouave with 72" twist would not shoot well with less than 120gr. 2F

Both of those rifles shot 1 1/2" to 2", 5-shot groups at 100yards off bags.

My current .58, an 1861 Musketoon, with 48" twist shoots very well with 82gr. (3 drams) of 2F and had given me 3" 5-shot groups at 100 meters, off bags (109yards) The sights on this rifle are mil-spec and are very close together - as well, I do not see them well at all.

So- anything from 48" to 72"- I would find out what is easily available - stick with square grooves and get to work. Anything between the fast and slow will work. You will be the deciding factor- the slower the twist, PROBABLY, the MORE powder it is going to 'take' to get it to shoot accurately.

YOUR accuracy requirements will define what is needed, as in where you stop on the search for accuracy.

Today, I would not be adverse to another 56" twist, the rate of twist for my Kodiak double rifle.  It was VERY accurate with only 100gr. of 2F, even more accurate with 110gr. & actually regulated with both charges.

So- I begrudgingly find myself in agreement with Mike - LOL! ;)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 08:02:49 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2017, 08:16:30 PM »
I have rifles with both round and flat grooved bores.  Both are capable of one hole five shot groups at fifty meters (rested).  Neither is difficult to load or clean, and I use .005" undersized balls, .020" denim patches soaked with lube, and what some probably consider to be heavy charges...65 gr. in .40 cal,  75 gr. in .50 cal., 86 gr. in .62 cal.  This gives me a point blank of around 70 meters, and at one hundred, I simply show a little sight over the notch to hit centre.  The barrels I use on my rifles range from 1:48 up to 1:66...larger bores require slower twist.  I use Getz, Rice, Montana RW, GRRW, GM, Colerain...you get the picture - I use 'em all, and they are all great. Don Getz once said that a bore that was uniform from one end to the other, and had rifling, would shoot well.  EOS!!
Rifling depth:  Toenjes barrels are arguably the deepest rifled available to the mortal man/woman.  T/C barrels are arguably the shallowest.  I'll take Hugh's barrels over T/C's any day.  For a rifle, .010" - .018" depth is dandy.  For a pistol, .005" - .010" is good.

This, of course, is totally my own opinion.  It is obvious that what works for me may not work for others.  Learning by shooting is the best teacher.  These notes are just to give me typing exercise.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2017, 08:19:21 PM »
Good golly.....I hope I don't have to end up shooting 100 gr in my yet to be built 1 in 56....... :o I forgot I built a .58 with a 29" Colerain barrel with a 1 in 66 twist last year. It shoots fine with 65gr 2ff. Of course I can't see worth a $#@* anymore so accuracy is irrelevant to a certain degree.... ::)
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline adam h

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2017, 08:32:27 PM »
the reason I asked this question is because I have shot bear but not none with a prb my plan was to build my own
hawken rifle and bear hunt with it next year . I am not recoil sensitive and have good eyes
may not be a good gun builder.
adam

Offline Joe S.

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2017, 08:39:15 PM »
Well you heard from a bunch of fellows that know their stuff.Listen to them,lots of lead thrown down field by them.When you get to building that hawken they will be a big help also,look up some of Taylors hawken threads,they will be of great value!welcome and good luck with your build!

Offline Joe S.

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2017, 08:43:07 PM »
almost forgot,you look at the shooting forum and noticed  nobody can see a dang thing yet they still hit what their aiming at,must be something other than luck going on ;)

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2017, 11:22:09 PM »
the reason I asked this question is because I have shot bear but not none with a prb my plan was to build my own
hawken rifle and bear hunt with it next year . I am not recoil sensitive and have good eyes
may not be a good gun builder.
I build a gun for you if you give me your eyes, even a Hawken rifle ;)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2017, 11:30:27 PM »
A Hawken rifle does not shoot conicals, so do not consider hunting bear with conicals.  Your .58 cal rifle will kill a black bear instantly with a lung shot - bones offer no obstacle.  You will not recover your ball.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline adam h

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2017, 11:35:52 PM »
sorry mike I need my eyes
thanks for the advice everyone I new I would get good advise here that's why I joined
gonna be square bottom rifling in 1 in 72 twist
d taylor sapergia: thanks that was also what I was trying to make sure I got right
adam

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: hawken fever
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2017, 01:10:20 AM »
A 58 sure will do the job. I've got four bears with a 58 with 570 ball and 95 gr. 1&1/2 swiss. I only recovered the ball on one, quartering away and ball ended up against the hide on off side shoulder. Longest recovery was about 50-60 yds. shortest was about 10 yds. Shot placement is key so if put in the right place your 58 will geter done. I'm going to Alberta next week for Bear but will be in NW Minn. in Sept. looking for the Skull Lake Phantom. Good luck on your build and welcome to the forum.   :)