Round Barreled longrifles

[Old Ford2]

I'm sure it must have been asked before, but have not found any results.
Were there any gun makers producing round barreled rifles?
I'm sure  individuals must have gone this way, as requested by the customer, but did any gun maker prefer this design.
It would be more labour intensive to make the round barrel as compared to the octagonal barrel, but it would be more forgiving to inlet.
Many and most fowlers were round barreled, and yet there were many smooth "rifles" with octagonal barrels.
Thank you for any information that you may provide.
Fred

[bama]

Yes there are a few existing examples of Kentucky rifles with round barrels and quite a few with octagon to round barrels. If I remember correctly the early Bethelham rifle is a round hooked breech gun, sorry I don't remember the makers name at this moment.

[Elnathan]

I can think of a couple smooth-rifles with round barrels off the top of my head. Not so sure about true rifles, though.

[rich pierce]

I'm with Elnathan.  Smooth rifles, yes. Rifles, not seen that before.

There are reasons for this.  It was easier to make an octagonal barrel than an octagon to round or round barrel.  The only reason for round is to reduce weight. Reduced weight means reduced wall thickness. Reduced wall thickness means a whippier barrel and less accuracy. 

[jerrywh]

 A round barrel requires a lathe.  Many of the builders will tell you there were no metal lathes in the shops of colonial gun makers. Either the barrel makers had them or some of the gun makers had them or both.

[tim crowe]

Jerry,
Why would a round barrel require a lathe, if you can draw file a octagon barrel, why not file 16 flats then 32, 64 and so on til it is round ? Where there is a will there is a way. Maybe I do things the hard way but it is doable.

[rich pierce]

Because why, Tim?  Just curious, why someone would decide they want a round barrel for a rifle, and would be willing to pay for somebody to hand file it.

[jerrywh]

Because why, Tim?  Just curious, why someone would decide they want a round barrel for a rifle, and would be willing to pay for somebody to hand file it.

   Octagon barrels were not filed octagon they were ground down on a grind stone. At least in Europe and England and since the colonial gun makers came from there it follows they did it the same way. filing one down was too labor intensive. that is why.

[tim crowe]

The point I was trying to make was , you don't need a lathe to make it round . As I reread the question it pertained to a rifle barrel being round . Probably more of a HC question on that note.
In the tradition from the Bookout family barrels were forged octagon then draw filed not ground. Then I am getting off topic, my apologies Old Ford.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Barrels were welded using a round mandrill and an anvil with round grooves.  That means the barrel formed was initially round. Flats were then hammered, ground, and filed if an octagon barrel was required.  There is a woodcut engraving on page 194  in "Espingarda Perfeyta", a Portuguese gunsmith manual published in 1713, showing a gunsmith turning a barrel on large lathe powered by a hand crank attached to a large (an likely heavy) flywheel.  It also describes using files and firmer chisels to shape and finish the iron barrels on the lathe. 

dave

[Hungry Horse]

At a time when everything was done the hard way, why would anybody make things harder on themselves? Some California very late percussion guns were built with round barrels, but most of them were multi barreled guns, and virtually all of them were made by high end gunsmiths that had lathes. I suspect that since cartridge arms were available, either the finished barrels were purchased, or round blanks were purchased from a barrel manufacturer.

  Hungry Horse

[oldtravler61]

 Just remember that back then. There way was the best way. Cause they didn't know any different. Oldtravler

[jerrywh]

 I have more than one engravings from the 1700's showing a barrel smith grinding  a barrel octagon. Only a fool would file down a round barrel to an octagon. Remember they didn't do just one they had hundreds or thousands of them to do.  I did one once when I was about 35 years old so I know what I'm talking about.  Round barrel are much easier to make than octagon.  Smart Dog is correct in my opinion.
  As for the original question, I never have seen an American long rifle with a round barrel but that doesn't mean there were none. 

[smokinbuck]

Over the years I have run across several original barrels where the top had 5 flats and the bottom of the barrel was round. The bottom of the barrel was not seen and a round barrel channel would seem to be easier to create than octagon as well as the amount of work eliminated by leaving the bottom round as opposed to filing 3 more flats.
Mark

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I had the occasion to re-convert a 3rd Model Brown Bess some years ago, and upon removing the browned barrel from the stock, the barrel within the forestock was bright - not browned - and there were very deep grind marks at a substantial angle to the bore.  The barrel outside the forestock was slick and smooth, but brown.
There are some fowling pieces in Grinslade's book with round barrels.  I suspect that old military barrels were from time to time repurposed for fowling guns.  But I've never seen a rifled longrifle.with a round barrel.  My experience is insignificant, though.

[blienemann]

Old Ford,

Very few over the years to my knowledge, but I saw an original signed DeHuff contract rifle, studied and stocked a copy - ca 1808 - 10 or so and from Lancaster.  This was one of some number of rifles made to pattern, and Kauffman's book and other sources may reference these contracts.  This had a rifled barrel, first made round, and then the top flats were filed from the round for the rear part of the barrel.  Kinda backwards to the usual approach.  The corners of the flats were same dimension as the round, and only filed on top where you can see them, bottom was left round like early HF 1803's.  The patchbox was similar to HF and 1792 contract rifles.   

Interesting . . . lots of experimenting going on, and pressure on prices, maybe some rifles were left full round about that time?  Then there is the 1817 common rifle . . .   

The Dehuffs had to have started with a round barrel, and I don't know why a round barrel would be any harder to forge and grind than other profiles.  This was much heavier than a fowler barrel.  In the Christian's Spring inventories ca 1760's and 1770's octagon rifled barrels cost more than round fowler barrels.

Don't know that a gun or barrel maker preferred this, but they made some on order.  This may have been to save money, but was heavy.  I don't remember the details - maybe a 38" round barrel maybe 1 1/8" dia in about .54.  Stout!  Bob

[Bigmon]

If ya watch Daniel Boone re-runs on the TV you will see Dan'l uses a round barreled longrifle.  So there must have been cause' it's on TV and has to be true.

[rich pierce]

When hand forging a barrel they are forged octagon on a swage block.  Anyone who forges knows you forge square, never round.  The surface can be improved using a "flatter". Leaving less and less filing work.

Yes we have seen the old engravings of barrels being ground octagon using a carriage.  And yes lathes existed in the 18th century.  Nobody can document either the method of grinding octagonal by water power or lathe turning of barrels in the colonies to my knowledge. What can and has been documented is forging of octagonal rifle barrels using a swag block, rough grinding or possible hot filing, and draw filing of the top flats. 

Unfortunately, probably because of the laws supporting the mercantile system, we do not have much information about the early barrel mills in American colonies. We do have many accounts of imported barrels in the years before the Revolutionary War. 

[jerrywh]

  Some of the stuff I read on these forums defy logic. 

[smallpatch]

If round barrels would have been cheaper, and/or easier, don't you think we'd have seen ALOT more of them?

Just thinking out loud!

[Joe S.]

  Some of the stuff I read on these forums defy logic.

What,like why aren't cannon barrels octogon

[rich pierce]

  Some of the stuff I read on these forums defy logic.

What,like why aren't cannon barrels octogon

Because they are cast?

[rich pierce]

  Some of the stuff I read on these forums defy logic.

That's history for ya.  They never started out like we do with round stock turned on a lathe and deep hole drilled. They started out with a flat skelp and forge welded it pounding it out on an anvil.  Like they do at colonial Williamsburg or at Dixons each year.  No lathe. No grinding carriage. Who here hasn't seen that?  Who here has seen demonstrated colonial water wheel driven carriage to flatten octagon barrels, or a water powered metal cutting lathe turning round barrels?  If not, why not?  Because three is no record of it in the colonies.  No record of it in the many gunsmith inventories.  They forged gun barrels at Christians Spring and kept careful inventories too. 

I'm from Missouri now I guess. It's the show me state.  Just because something existed and was used in Europe often had zero bearing on what was available and used here. 

[Joe S.]

  Some of the stuff I read on these forums defy logic.

What,like why aren't cannon barrels octogon

Because they are cast?

My poor attempt at humor......

[tim crowe]

The last 3 barrels I forged with the Old Troll Bookie in the Hallowed Halls of Toad Hall are forged round due to welding as rolling the barrel back and forth creates a round barrel. Flats are forged after all the barrel is welded up.