Author Topic: Great book on engraving.  (Read 5427 times)

Offline deepcreekdale

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Great book on engraving.
« on: May 08, 2017, 06:28:16 PM »
I was displaying at a gun show this weekend and while things were a little slow, I happened to notice a book on firearms engraving on the tables next to mine. The very gracious gentleman offered it to me for free as he said someone had given it to him and he was tired of carrying it around. The title of the book is Firearms Engraving as Decorative Art by Dr. Fredric A Harris. Initially I thought it would just be a pretty coffee table picture book of fancy engraved modern guns. Instead it turned out to be a fascinating study and critique of some the great engravers of the past such as Ulrich, Nimschke, and Young. It was also  interesting to learn how much of the Baroque and Rococo art we use was developed from Middle Eastern art and from ornamentation found in the Koran.
Many of the photographs are EXTREME close ups and you can easily see exactly how the cuts were made and executed. Some excellent border designs  would fit in our time frame perfectly. The pictures are so well done, you can see precisely where  and how the cuts were executed and how they could be duplicated. 
While the book dies not address how to perform any actual engraving techniques, it appears to be extremely useful in design ideas, and explains scrolls and volutes in great detail and describes why some engraving looks fluid and smooth and other looks "off". That is the part I found most useful to our specific time period and the type of engraving they display.
I am sure some of you are aware of this book, but I had never heard it referenced before. I looked on Amazon, it is available although not cheap. ( I mean really not cheap!) I still highly recommend this book to a serious student of engraving that is looking for ideas, inspiration and examples. I have already found it extremely useful and it is truly a fascinating read. It may not be a great beginners book like John Schippers excellent work, but it is far superior to James Meek in my opinion. I  hope this is useful to some of you.
”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2017, 07:31:21 PM »
Meek's book is not great. He could really draw and engrave, but he could not convey this to the reader.
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2017, 07:46:28 PM »
 Some people are great engravers and some people are great teachers.  Not very many people are both. 1 personally know some of the worlds greatest engravers.  Only a few of them can teach it well.
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Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2017, 08:31:12 PM »
Meek's book is not great. He could really draw and engrave, but he could not convey this to the reader.
I agree completely Acer. I think one of the biggest problems in Meeks book, there is hardly any information at all on HOW to engrave. Little guidance for a beginner, but for years, it was about the only thing out there that was readily available. If I recall, there is only a page or 2 that even addresses actual technique. There may be more, I haven't looked at my copy for years, but it sure isn't much.
”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

BillieK

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2017, 09:44:18 AM »
Meek's book is not great. He could really draw and use Yoga Burn https://www.danielleaubert.com/yoga-burn-review-results/ engrave, but he could not convey this to the reader.

Do you know of any really good books on engraving?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 04:23:27 PM by BillieK »

Offline BOB HILL

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2017, 03:44:36 PM »
Engraving Historic firearms by John Schippers is a great book.       Bob
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Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2017, 04:27:11 PM »
Billie, Bob is right, get Schippers book. It is the only step by step from the beginning book out there and is specific to older firearms. Ideally, try to take a class as well, it will move you along much quicker and better than any other way. If possible, try to attend the NMRLA Seminar at WKU or Schippers classes at Conner Prairie. Unless you are a naturally gifted artist, in the long run it will save you money, aggravation and lots of crappy engraving attempts. The NMRLA Seminar is a lot of fun as well, and money well spent.
”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

Online JTR

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2017, 06:01:45 PM »
Get Schippers book to help you learn to engrave, but don't learn Schippers engraving style, as its not appropriate to original longrifles styles.
If you want to put his style of engraving on your rifle, fine. Its your rifle with Schipper style engraving.
If you put his style engraving on your rendition of a Dickert or Sell or Nicolas Hawk, its going to look pretty funny!
John
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Offline Long John

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2017, 04:20:53 PM »
Friends,

I agree that Schippers' book  is a superb resource.  But I was still struggling until I got Acer's one-page summary sheet on how to sharpen the point of the tool.  That changed everything!  I am NOT a good engraver, I am not yet even a poor engraver, but the combination of Schippers' book and Acer's sharpening review sheet has undammed the creek!  I am now making progress that I only dreamed of before.  I no longer dread the prospect of engraving.

Thank you to you both!

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

Offline redheart

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2017, 05:13:24 PM »
How do we find acers tutorial? :o

Online JTR

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2017, 07:06:52 PM »
Nowdays, tool sharpening is one of the easiest things to do in engraving!
Just bite the bullet and buy either a GRS sharpening tool, or one of the Lindsey template setups.

Look at it this way, if you sharpen by hand alone, and you get it right, your graver goes in a straight line, not too deep, nor too shallow. But when you re-sharpen, maybe you don’t get it exactly as before so your graver goes to the left, or right, from before. Or maybe dives in or skips across the patchbox or whatever you’re engraving.

But if you use one of the sharpening tools and learn to use it correctly, your graver will track along exactly as it did before. No surprising taking off to the right or to the left, no skipping across the metal, no diving down, but instead, just cutting exactly as it did the time before.

Yes, true, the tool will cost you a hundred bucks. But your stock cost more than a hundred bucks. As does your barrel, and your lock, and you only get to use those parts once. But you can use the sharpening tool on every gun you build, and with a bit of practice, and if you have the skill, your engraving can easily add more than a hundred bucks to each gun you build!

Plus, you don’t have to go through the aggravation of the dang sharpening blues! Just whip out the sharpening tool, insert the graver and give it a few swipes on the stone, and you’re good to go again!

John
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 07:08:35 PM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2017, 07:27:08 PM »
 I probably have or had every book and tape ever published on Engraving in the last 150 years. As for books the best I have ever read is John shippers for teaching engraving. As for videos, you really can't learn much by watching somebody else engrave.  John Shippers is a very good engraver and a very good teacher. The only thing better is one on one instruction from a professional engraver. There is one thing missing from all these sources of instruction. Nobody teaches why gravers need to be as they are geometrically and what effect changing the geometry has on control. I have often heard said that a modern engraver cannot engrave antique guns and visa versa. Engraving is nothing more than cutting metal. Once you learn that the rest is art. A master Engraver can engrave anything that can be cut and any style they wish. A novice cannot cut like a master but a master can cut like a novice.
 
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Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2017, 08:09:25 PM »
How do we find acers tutorial? :o

I don't think it was in an actual tutorial, but just a reply in a thread.  I think this is it.  Scroll to the bottom.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14919.0

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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2017, 08:59:51 PM »
Jerry H. is a great teacher, not just a good teacher. I took a class from him golly, ten, twelve years ago? #1) lesson: learn how to sharpen, the rest will fall into place. #2) There is nothing like hands-on, in-person instruction from someone who knows how.

I am doing a demo on sharpening at Dixon's this July, and I'm using the Lindsay template. It makes a perfect cutting edge with little technique needed. All you need is a hammer and a graver, and a template with diamond stones to get started. If you find you like engraving, you can add all the fancy equipment a piece at a time.

If anyone wants the cutter geometry sheet, email me thoscurran(at)gmail(dot)com

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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2017, 12:37:35 AM »
 I highly recommend Tom Curran's class.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2017, 01:18:50 AM »
Hi DeepCreekDale,
Thank you for the head's up on this book.  I am definitely going to look for it.  I agree that John Schipper's book is the best book from which to learn firearms engraving.  I agree with JTR that John's heavy style may not look quite right on many long rifles but it is pretty bang on as inspiration for the kind of engraving found on 19th and 19th century British guns. Regardless, he clearly describes with diagrams most of the cuts and decorations typically found on long rifles and so his book is immensely valuable to anyone wanting to engrave them.  I love Meek's book but not as a tutorial. I love his illustrations and drawings, and borrow from them heavily in my own work.  I also agree with others that no author provides a succinct practical tutorial on sharpening.  I think Lynton McKenzie's videos do the best job for that but I never got it exactly right until I started using Lindsay's sharpening templates and system. The odd thing with engraving books is that in the absence of correct sharpening technique, all the other information is not very useful.

dave
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Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2017, 03:56:08 PM »

Dave, glad to pass the info on.  One thing I might suggest, after looking at the prices on Amazon, I would check and see if you could get it on interlibrary loan if your local library does not have it. (They probably don't) The other option would be to luck into someone that will give you a copy as I did.
 I will admit, the book focuses more on 19th century guns like Colts and Winchesters but I found the chapter on borders with the very large close ups very useful and able to be applied to earlier guns of interest to us.  It also has a very useful and interesting study on scrolls. I have been playing with a practice plate the past few days after looking at that chapter and am very happy with some interesting variations on the basic scroll and volute. The author focuses more on the origin of the designs used which I believe is applicable to us.
The reason I passed this information on, there are so few books on engraving of use to gun engraver, any new resource is nice to have to a serious student of longrifles. I had never seen this book mentioned before and I personally found it useful.
”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2017, 07:12:53 PM »
 Books on Engraving are not very rare. I probably have about 50 of them. A gun is just another piece of metal in a different shape. All Antique guns are made of soft metal as long as they are not case hardened. If anybody is looking for engraving patterns on antique guns on of the best sources is Auction catalogs.
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2017, 07:43:34 PM »
Personally speaking, I don't know how anyone can learn from most of the available videos.  I have them by Jack Brooks, Lynton McKenzie, and George Sherwood.  I have yet to be able to make it thru any of them without falling asleep or getting bored.  They are poorly produced and scripted and ramble on with lots of excess verbage.  Most others I have watched are the same.

The exceptions:  Anything by Sam Alfano and Marcus Hunt's video on fine English scroll.  Sam's are done professionally as though it were in a classroom environment and are methodical without extraneous BS.  Marcus' is done like wise and is accompanied by a study manual using a step-by-step approach to the content.
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2017, 08:13:25 PM »
 I will make some enemies here but I would not buy any of the Engraving videos I have seen from any of the Long rifle engravers. I have seen most of them. Watching someone engrave is a waste of time. Most of the engraving videos from the professionals are geared to engravers with some previous experience. I have never seen anything better so far than John Shipper's book.  When I teach I start from Zero because at least 1/2 of what most people know is wrong.
  John Shippers does mostly English antique gun patterns but the patterns don't matter the object is to learn to cut metal.
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Great book on engraving.
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2017, 09:11:00 PM »
I highly recommend Tom Curran's class.

Hahahaha. Members of the MAS (mutual admiration society).
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