Author Topic: Pistol layout....look right? (Read 6342 times)

Mauser06 · « **on:** May 16, 2017, 03:04:52 AM »

Trying g not to drive you guys nuts. But I am hoping to turn out a functional pistol from my first plank build.

Anyone wanna take a look at the layout before I start the barrel channel??

I printed out the trigger I plan to use and lined it up with the sear arm where it should work...reach feels right...

Does the layout look right? The lock seems high...but the barrel is thin. The pan lines up with the anticipated touch hole. Only idea is maybe rotate the tail of the lock downward a smidge?

Hard to see but the anticipated touch hole is right about where the wood is cut away...

Any thoughts? I'm all ears and appreciate the help.

Thanx!

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #1 on:** May 16, 2017, 03:40:00 AM »

I think you may have cut the grip prematurely. Assuming that the lock is oriented properly to the barrel (pan centered over touch hole location), you need to mark the sear bar location. Use that to locate the trigger, then the trigger guard. That will give you the front edge of the grip. You need to make sure the grip size and shape as well as the trigger location will fit your hand. Then you can cut the back of the grip. You should be able to bend the grip rail of the trigger guard to fit. Rifle or pistol, you need to layout ALL the parts on the stock blank BEFORE you cut or inlet anything.

You are probably Ok, but until you layout everything, you don't know.

As to the bottom line, that will have to be trimmed once you have your ramrod hole in. I only leave 1/16" between the ramrod hole and the bottom of the stock.

Mauser06 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 16, 2017, 04:30:15 AM »

Thanx Mark.

The bottom line is the bottom of the ramrod. Like you, I hope to leave just enough wood.

I didn't do the cutout work...but I did buy it that way...I was a bit worried about it..but I think it'll work out fine. I hope! I see what you mean. I don't have any room on the back of the grip. Essentially round it to shape from that but the back edge is going to remain.

I will have to take another picture...I used TOTW actual size printouts of the lock, trigger and trigger guard. That's how I got to where I am.... tomorrow sometime I will stick them on the stock and take a pic of that...

Daryl · « **Reply #3 on:** May 16, 2017, 05:28:38 AM »

You could print copy these to 'paint' adjust them to full size, then print and use for overlays and parts location. They both work well. The second one has a Trackofthewolf John Bailes lock & a longer wrist. Taylor's pistol (top one) has a shorter butt- maybe?.

smart dog · « **Reply #4 on:** May 16, 2017, 01:55:17 PM »

Hi Mauser,
I don't know what if any style of pistol your want to create but I suggest your lock is too high. I would prefer it down at least 1/8" but probably 3/16". You are going to have a lot of trouble shaping the barrel tang and lock panel areas the way you have it now. Don't be afraid to place the touch hole in the barrel a little below center so your lock can be fit lower. The pictures below may help you visualize one style of pistol.

dave

FALout · « **Reply #5 on:** May 16, 2017, 02:40:11 PM »

As already suggested, next time, I would start with a blank that has no shape cut out. How you get your barrel inletted will dictate everything. In your case, the lock will likely be lower then you think which could be an issue. I find it easier to draw everything out on paper, you can base everything by tracing out the stock and working from there. One problem I had once, (I've only built a few pistols) was the lock choice/barrel used. Too small of lock with a large barrel had the mainspring hitting the barrel before the bolster laid flat on the barrel. Good luck if you move on with this project

Mauser06 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 16, 2017, 05:13:30 PM »

Thanx Dave. I don't have a particular pistol I'm going after. Kinda generic full stock..

I was concerned about the lock being high...I just don't know how to lower it...I will look everything over again...maybe something isn't lined up as right as I thought.

The barrel is a 54cal smoothbore...the breech is somewhere around .900"..can't recall off the top of my head.

Bob, I don't see the problem if my lock ends up lower than I think...I have a fair bit of wood below the barrel...and that layout actually has the barrel sunk a little over half way.

I can always change the lock...that is a Late Ketland.

Mauser06 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 16, 2017, 06:27:24 PM »

Just looked at things again...the lock will definitely be lower than I drew....and I think a bit forward...sear arm is going to need moved forward a smidge to give proper trigger pull I think.

Will work on it later and post updated pics. I think I got it now...though the front lock bolt won't be through the web...I can figure that or leave it off.

smallpatch · « **Reply #8 on:** May 16, 2017, 08:06:45 PM »

Just move the whole thing down. If you've got plenty of wood below. Then lock will be ok, front lock bolt will still work.
Lay out is started with the barrel, then the lock, trigger, etc.
Angling locks, leaving out lock bolts, shortening sear arms shouldn't be necessary, or done.
Bottom line, if you can't make the layout work, get a new piece of wood. It's the cheapest part.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #9 on:** May 16, 2017, 08:40:23 PM »

You can have the touch hole high on the pan, when you close the frizzen, it covers the hole some. That could buy you an 1/8". You can also drill the touch hole 1/16 lower on the barrel, if you use a touch hole liner, use a 1/4 diameter one.

Mauser06 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 17, 2017, 04:34:03 AM »

Small patch, I agree...build the gun around the barrel. But with a pistol, if I'm off by even a half inch it can make the trigger reach difficult. That's my only real concern.

I want to get the barrel in a position that will get the lock and in turn the sear arm and in turn the trigger in it's happy place. Maybe I'm overthinking it....

It is a swamped barrel so I can't simply move the barrel to the rear without leaving a gap in the barrel channel somewhere...even that could be done though need be...not like it has a giant swamp...

Acer, Thanx! That should help if I get hung up there....

Might be taking the long way around....but I still think I will cut a cheap plank and do a mock build...never built from a plank so there's some learning to do.... Really hate to trash that piece if I can avoid it....its highly figured and harder than a rock... hoping to turn it into a nice pistol.

jerrywh · « **Reply #11 on:** May 18, 2017, 06:14:55 AM »

Smart dog is correct in my opinion. That lock is too high. Or you have some kind of strange lock. Show the lock. It is definitely not right.

Long John · « **Reply #12 on:** May 18, 2017, 03:58:46 PM »

Mauser,

I think your lock "looks" high because you have a lot of wood beneath it that seems to be there to provide a margin for error of the ramrod hole. You have to include the trigger in your layout to know just how much wood is going to remain once the stock is shaped down. It might be a very slender gun when all is done.

The other question I have is: What is your objective? This is a persistent theme with me so feel free to ignore this. If your objective is to build a pretty pistol that might fit some one then you are on the right track, in my view. If your objective is to build a pistol that you can shoot accurately then the design has to start with the distance from the inside of your palm, next to the thumb, to the pad on your shooting hand index finger. That locates the trigger. Once the trigger is located you locate the lock. the lock determines where the touch-hole is and the location of the touch-hole locates the barrel. If you have big hands and a little lock the pistol will look a little "different" compared to others. As I look at your picture, I don't think I would have enough distance from the back of the butt part of the stock to the trigger for my hands. But you are not building it for me!

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

Mauser06 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 18, 2017, 04:28:06 PM »

The lock is a late ketland. After looking again, I did have it a bit high.

John, Indo believe this pistol has potential to be pretty slender once shaped.

My objective is a pistol for myself...hopes of it being accurate and able to deer hunt with it...

That's why I've been working on the layout and not simply inletting the barrel and building around it. That trigger placement is more critical on a pistol than a rifle. Miss a length of pull by 1/2"...no big deal...miss the pistol by 1/2" and you may not be able to reach it. Or it's back so far the guard is in the way blasting your knuckle.

I'm taking this slow and trying to plan it out so the outcome is desirable...

I appreciate all the feedback! Will try to get rid of the lines and draw the new ones soon.... turkeys are taking over my life right now lol

smart dog · « **Reply #14 on:** May 18, 2017, 06:18:12 PM »

Hi,
I've built a fair number of pistols. The late Ketland lock is a bit big for a pistol but certainly workable. I get that you want to build a utilitarian pistol but that doesn't mean it can't be sleek and business-like. With the lock set high you will by necessity have to keep the barrel tang fairly straight. This will create a pistol with a distinct humpy look. There are some gunmaking styles that did that such as some Bedford and Lehigh pistols I have seen. However, in my opinion, nothing makes a pistol look better than having the barrel tang start curving downward almost immediately behind the barrel. To do that the lock must not be too large and must be set a low as possible. As I previously mentioned, don't get hung up on the idea that the touch hole must be centered on the barrel flat. It can be a little below the center line and if the lock is positioned such that the hole is high in the pan or level with the top, you should be able to move the lock down. With respect to gun design that pleases the eye, I believe it is better to have the appearance of more wood above the lock and less below it. You also might want to consider drilling a 5/16" ramrod hole and taper a 3/8" rod (or larger) to fit it. That will allow you to bring the bottom of the stock up a bit more and keep the gun looking sleek despite the bigger lock.

dave

jerrywh · « **Reply #15 on:** May 19, 2017, 03:54:35 AM »

I see your problem now. That late Ketland is to big and is not a good pistol lock. Look how low the pan sits on it. That forces you to put your lock way too high. You need to find another lock before you go any farther.

Mauser06 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 19, 2017, 04:06:04 AM »

Thanx guys!

Would the small Siler work better? Or what would you guys recommend? I'd like something that doesn't need a ton of work if that's possible...I knew the lock was a Little on the big side...but thought I'd be alright and benefit from the speed.

Dave, I was REALLY considering a smaller rod. At the end of the day it is basically decoration. I really don't know that I will ever use it. Range I will have a range rod. Cleaning same deal....in the field, I honestly doubt I carry reloads...I will always have a long gun with me. A smaller rod makes more sense and will keep it sleek and slender.

You guys are awesome! That's why I posted before I started cutting. Always a good idea to have knowledgeable people take a look....

I'm excited about this and eager to get it done...but I know that's how mistakes and big mistakes are made. I have no time line...no rush.

So...let's figure out what lock to put on her!

Mauser06 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 19, 2017, 05:33:18 AM »

A little more cost.....but since I am considering Stan Hollenbaugh's single set trigger (will fire as a normal trigger)....I see he makes a pistol lock that seems to give a real nice looking pistol. Don't know how it functions or sparks, but I'd assume it is high quality.

Any thoughts on that lock? Or others??

Like I said, I don't have a set pistol in mind. Not attempting to recreate any particular piece. I am hoping to make a accurate hunting pistol that looks nice...

Barrel is 10.5" swamped and measures 13/16" at the breech. Hoping for something that isn't huge. Like I said, it's going to be accompanied by a long gun so I don't want a mini cannon to lug around. I do plan to hunt with it.

alyce-james · « **Reply #18 on:** May 19, 2017, 05:46:25 AM »

Mauser06; Sir I have a couple of Mr. Hollenbaugh's pistol locks. In my humble opinion, I think they are as fine as you can find. I also have a couple of Stan's single set triggers, outstanding. However if you can find one of Mr. Bob Roller's. In my humble opinion they are also as fine as you will find. Have a great week end. AJ.

Rolf · « **Reply #19 on:** May 19, 2017, 10:46:38 AM »

Quote from: Mauser06 on May 19, 2017, 05:33:18 AM

Like I said, I don't have a set pistol in mind. Not attempting to recreate any particular piece. I am hoping to make a accurate hunting pistol that looks nice...

Barrel is 10.5" swamped and measures 13/16" at the breech. Hoping for something that isn't huge. Like I said, it's going to be accompanied by a long gun so I don't want a mini cannon to lug around. I do plan to hunt with it.

Check hunting restrictions in Your state. Some have a minium 13" barrel length.

Best regards
Rolf

smallpatch · « **Reply #20 on:** May 19, 2017, 05:14:22 PM »

Hollenbaughs Ditchburn lock is a great lock. I have one of each. The pistol lock is definitely a better size for what you're doing. They are well made, and worth the price.

Mauser06 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 19, 2017, 06:06:58 PM »

Thanx guys!

I think I will go that route....and a thinner rod...or heavily tapered rod.

Will make a new post when I'm ready to revisit the layout and you guys can check it again. Lol.

jerrywh · « **Reply #22 on:** May 19, 2017, 07:34:05 PM »

America pistols are different than English or European. On The best English pistols the Ram rods were nearer 1/4" in diameter. American pistols were about 3/8". Smooth bore pistols do not require a tight load since the average expected range was only about 10 ft.

Mauser06 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 20, 2017, 12:49:23 AM »

Sure hope I can shoot a deer farther than 10 feet!

Talked to Mr. Hoyt when I bought it...we decided to leave it smooth and see how she shoots...we kind of agreed that within range that rifling probably won't make any difference. Maybe we're wrong..I'd be happy with 30yds or so.

I will think out the ramrod layout...either go small or a taper...I agree...even if I do actually use it, I won't be raming a real tight patched ball... actually hoping it shoots well with bare ball like my rifle does. That's pretty nice.

Mauser06 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 23, 2017, 02:45:42 PM »

Ordered one of Stan Hollenbaugh's pistol locks. He said the trigger won't work in a pistol because the plate would need bent and that's make the trigger not work.

Either try the L&R or go with a regular single trigger.

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Author Topic: Pistol layout....look right? (Read 6342 times)