rd ball for .36 cal Green Mt barrel ??

[Bigmon]

Been on the bench again with this 36 cal Green Mt barrel.
I bought some Hornady swaged balls .350 and am using a .015 patch.
Shoots about a three inch group at 25 yds w/ 45 gr 3F powder.

Not as tite as I'd like for sure.
Thing is, just seems too easy to seat the ball.  The entire length of the 42" barrel.  Seems so easy.

I am wondering if I need larger dia balls.??
I hate to change pillow ticking.  Much more and it will be heavier than the ball?

Any idears what I could do, ot is thius normal??

I am thinking that maybe it being such a small cal that it is easier cause there is less surface area and less resistance?? And it is actually as tite as any other larger cal, in relation to the dia.??
Make sense??

[smokinbuck]

Not knowing what barrel you are shooting my first inclination would be to try an .018 patch or stick with the .015 patch and go to a .355 ball. You should be able to shrink that group by a whole bunch.
Mark

[smokinbuck]

Sorry about my lack of concentration, I see you are shooting a Green Mountain barrel. I would still stay with my earlier suggestion. I have had good luck, and tight groups, with Green mountain barrels. I also am using Mr Flintlock lube, it's great stuff.
Marki

[hanshi]

Not the same barrel but I shoot a .350" ball with .022" mattress ticking with mink oil lube and also .025" denim patches lubed with Hoppes BP lube.  These are both tight but accurate and seat relatively easily with the wood, underbarrel rod.  I also have been considering a larger ball.

[okawbow]

I have a rifle with the same barrel. I use the Speer .350 with a .015 denim patch. I got poor groups with pillow ticking. Better groups with the denim. I use 40 gr. 3f.

I now have a mold and am trying .355 cast balls next. I've also found these barrels need shot in for 1 or 2 hundred rounds before settling in. I won't be satisfied until I can get under a 1" group at 25 yards from a bench.

[Hungry Horse]

This is a scientific process, so treat it as such. What do the spent patches look like? Does the rifle crack when fired, or just boom? These are indications of patch seal, and velocity, that can tell you a lot about what is actually going on. Modern pillow ticking for the most part, is just plain old material, made overseas, with a striped pattern to look like pillow ticking. It is usually not tightly woven as pillow ticking should be. Denim, and pocket drill, are woven much tighter, and resist burning better. Powder charges are more sensitive in smaller calibers, so maybe throttling the charge back a few grains will tighten the group up. The Green Mountain barrels are usually 1in 48" twist in the smaller calibers, which is a bit slow for a .36 cal., but a five grain change can mean a lot in a squirrel caliber.

  Hungry Horse

[Standing Bear]

I'm near completing an upgrade (from pop-lock to flintlock) of a .36 long rifle that has a GM barrel. I talked to a good shooter who shoots the same barrel in a .36 flintlock. His mold iirc is .356. A deal came up on an Ideal .358 RB mold and a .355 GM mold and I jumped. Have some .358s poured already. He uses .015" to .018" patch material as well as teflon coated material.  I also have some .350s for experiments. Plenty of patch material on hand from .012" to .028".

The fun begins. 
TC

[willyr]

I have been shooting a Green Mountain .36 caliber barrel since 1993. After much experimenting, I settled on a .360 ball with .017 patching and 35 grains swiss fffg. This load shoots good at all ranges-out to 100 yards. I don't do benchrest shooting, but that load will shoot half inch offhand groups at 25 yards. I bought the patching material at a fabric shop and the bolt was marked "plain ticking"- it is a very tight weave fabric. I use water in a spray bottle with a little liquid detergent added for patch lube- since I wear dentures, I can't count on a good supply of saliva. For hunting I use olive oil for a patch lube.
     During the experimenting stage, I did try some .350 balls and they shot okay at 25 yards but looked more like a shotgun pattern at 50 and 100 yards.
Be Well,
Bill

[Daryl]

Not the same barrel but I shoot a .350" ball with .022" mattress ticking with mink oil lube and also .025" denim patches lubed with Hoppes BP lube.  These are both tight but accurate and seat relatively easily with the wood, underbarrel rod.  I also have been considering a larger ball.

The .350 is all I have for a mould right now.  If I could get a .355" or .360" easily, I would switch to larger balls. I use the same .022" denim I use in most guns 10 ounce denim, shoots in them all, seemingly with .010" or .005" under bore size balls. The tighter the fit, the better it shoots.
With the .350" ball and .022" patch, a short starter isn't needed - but - definitely will NOT thumb start.  Choke up on the rod to staert the combo into the barrel, then push it down with successive pushes, such as 4", then 15", then the rest of the way. It's all about technique.

With the .350" ball and .015 patch noted by Bigmon along with the 45gr. powder charge, I am not surprised by the lack of accuracy.  Keep in mind, most flintlock smoothbores will shoot ONE inch for 5 shots at 25 yards, with only one sight and no rifling.

Thicker patch will improved things instantly, with further testing down the road with thicker yet, or larger balls.

[Bigmon]

Thanks to all.
I been shooting at two targets at 25 yds off sandbags as best as I can hold it.

With 50 gr they are all within a qt jar lid size.
With 45 grs all in a snuff can or better with three or four cutting the same hole.
Still, too much spray.  I could and will try heavier patching but I think ultimatley it will be bigger balls also. that makes the differece.
It just isnt tite enough , I can tell by the sound.
It is close, but not quite.

All my other rifles I use biffer RB's trying to keep the patching at .15 to o18?
I have a green mt 50 cal percussion that litterally will drive nail heads for as far as ya can see them to shoot them.
65 gr 3F 495 ball and the same 015 ticking.
I am going to get some 358 or 360 balls and try that.
Also, some better tighter weave ticking.
Thanks again

[moleeyes36]

I have a 42 inch, .36 caliber Douglas barrel (1-66 twist) that I get best results with 60 grains of fffg, .360 ball, 10 ounce denim, and Mr. Flintlock lube.  It loads the tight patch and ball combo pretty easily because the barrel is coned. 

Mole Eyes

[Fyrstyk]

In my GM .36 caliber barrel with 1:48" twist I use Hornaday 000 buck shot, a .015 drill patch lubed with Mink oil, all over a 36 caliber felt wad used for BP revolvers.  I get near 1 hole groups off the bench at 25 yards and 1.25" groups at 50 yards with 35 grains of 3fgoex.  Don't shoot much farther than 60 yards as my eyes aren't up to it.  Wind plays havoc on the little balls at longer range too.

[Bigmon]

I went out to the bench area this morning and looked for patches.
They are terrible.  Really frayed all around and far in toward the center.
I am sure this is not helping at any rate.  This is ticking I got at Walmart I believe,

I think I still need larger RD's but am gonna do something with this ticking also.

If I can I will post a pic of these patches for you all to see.

Thanks as always

[Daryl]

Some guys have trouble, it seems in reading patches.  The heavier the load, the more fraying there will be around the outside of a patch, due to muzzle blast from the increased pressure. The contact area around the ball should be VERY visible - compressed cloth fibers and have no burns or scorch marks running from beneath the ball, past the area of contact between the lands and grooves with the ball.  If too thin a patch is used, powder flame will scorch the patch past the ball out towards the periphery of the patch - or burn it to black patches or fragments of charred cloth.

Many are the degrees of 'fit' in a patch and ball combination.  Just for a test case, I have used in the .36 and .50 rifles, ball and patch combinations that do not run to the bottom of the grooves, patches showing scorches or burn marks, but still shooting 'cleanly', in that no wiping is necessary at any time.  What these combinations showed, was that although shooting seemingly as cleanly as tighter combinations that sealed, these looser combinations were not as accurate - they loaded slightly easier (a VERY minimal difference though) but did not shoot as well. It all amounts to what is good enough for you.

If the patch is not reusable for at least another shot, it is not thick enough for the ball that is being used, in my opinion.

Using .030" patches in my .69, I can shoot a 5 shot group with the same patch, re-lubing it for each load. That is a patch that holds it's integrity.

In thinner combinations, though the patch might not be burnt or scorched, it still might not be the right combination for the gun - thus, we experiment to find what is the best if THAT is the goal.

1 1/2" accuracy at 25 yards is not good accuracy for any rifle.  2" to 3" means something is horrifically wrong - I mean BAD!

Here is a 5 shot group at 28yards with a 20 bore smoothbore - 1 sight only, at the front.  5 shots in 1.783" ----  4 shots into 1.126"

[Kalhoon]

I have 36 green mtn, shoots best with .350 ball .18 patch 40gr 3f

[smallpatch]

If you're blowing patches, you'll never get consistent accuracy.
Thicker, tightly woven  patch should get you there.

[Bigmon]

As always, thanks to all.
This is very interesting.

I just ordered a box of .360 RB's and some .018 ticking  from TOW.
If the ticking doesnt work for this gun it will for my others, as that is what I try and use.

However, here are pics of three of my previous patches.  Again, this was Walmart stuff which obviously is not what to use.
Try using one of these for a second shot.
These were spit patches, cut at the muzzle.

[bob in the woods]

I prefer to only change one load component at a time when testing for accuracy. 

[hanshi]

Bigmon, those patches are definitely being burned up.  I like tight loads for accuracy and for the fact they keep the barrel free from the fouling buildup of multiple shots.  On a number of occasions I've also used fired patches with complete success; that should be your goal when searching for that right combination.  On the few fired balls I've found or pulled, due to dry balling Ahem! (feeta clay, you know), The patch weave was pressed deeply into the lead ball; and not just from the lands but from the grooves, too. 

[Daryl]

Bigmon, as the guys noted, these patches are too thin, but not by much - a few to 5 more thousandths  in thickness might solve the patch problem.

Also, might appear in the bottom picture, that the bottom patch has also been cut by the muzzle crown.

If the crown is a bit sharp it will cut thicker patches, so needs to be smoothed.

I first shove a piece of cloth down the bore to catch the 'grindings' - it is easily plucked form teh bore with needle nose pliers or dental pick/worm, whatever.




Here's my .32 muzzle.



.69



20 bore



.50



.45 & .58 Enfield

[Daryl]

With the smoothed crown, the ball and patch 'flow' or 'form' more easily into the lands and grooves.

[Bigmon]

Daryl,
Thanks for the input.  I know ya had to go to some trouble in taking these good photos.
I did pay some special attention to the muzzle on this gun, had to.
I had used clorox in finishing it and had some trouble getting the wooden plug out of the muzzle as it swelled up real tight.
Had to drill out the center then split and pick the wood out.
Had a small knick in the crown that I thought I had got rid of.
I will work on that some more.
Also, I have some better grade .018 ticking ordered from TOW.
That stuff pictured mic's about .015 or016 but I think it is the loose weave that could be the proble,
We'll see when the order arrives?
Thanks again