Need help - trying to ID this rifle

[cwbuff]

Hi, this is my first post. I'm trying to ID this rifle. The barrel is signed "J. Baer" and the lock is marked "Hodgson & Co". There are a few gunsmiths named "J. Baer". I don't know which one it is. I'm hoping I can narrow it down by the style of the rifle and that is why I am here. Any help is appreciated.

Regarding "J. Baer": In the book, "The Kentucky Rifle" by Dillin, published in 1924, under the section “Riflesmiths before 1840,” lists J. Baer of Lancaster, PA. as famed for straight cut rifles. The book “American Gun Makers” by L.D. Satterlee and Major Arcadi Gluckman, published in 1953 by the Stackpole Co. in Harrisburg, PA, including the Supplement of American Gun Makers, lists on page 11, BAER, J.— Lancaster, Pa., 1810-1840. Flintlock Kentucky rifles. The following entry appears in the book “The Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle,” by Henry J. Kauffman. Under the section on biographies of Kentucky Rifle makers, on page 178, it lists John Baer of Chanceford Township, York County, Pennsylvania. Baer is also listed in the 1807 Census list for York County. The Kentucky Rifle Association references another John Baer of the Ohio School of Kentucky Rifle makers -- He was from Fulton County, Ohio.

Regarding "Hodgson & Co": Richard Hodgson is documented as having produced flintlocks for export and is listed on Bond Street in Birmingham England circa 1807 - 1811. A Hodgson & Co. importer and merchant is known to have operated in Baltimore, Maryland, circa 1780-1800. Hodgson gunsmiths are also identified as having been active from 1790-1835 in Ispwich, Suffolk, and around 1805 in London.

Here are some photos:

[cwbuff]

PS: If anyone can tell what "school" this gun is from that would help. Thanks.

[Hungry Horse]

 I would start looking at the Lehigh Pennsylvania school, and surrounding area. I have an unmarked longrifle of similar style that has the same curious engraved lines bracketing the sights. Mine has a brass trigger, and the patchbox and sideplate are held in with small brass nails instead of screws. It is about .45 cal., and is a smoothbore.

  Hungry Horse

[cwbuff]

Thanks - I will look into that. Let's see what others may come up with. This kind of detective work is half the fun.

[Hungry Horse]

Out of curiosity, does the wrist medallion have initials engraved running with the wrist instead of across the wrist?

  Hungry Horse

[cwbuff]

Out of curiosity, does the wrist medallion have initials engraved running with the wrist instead of across the wrist?

  Hungry Horse

There are no initials on the wrist medallion.

[Lucky R A]

Northern Berks Co. near the Lehigh Co. line.   Berks architecture & and patchbox.   Sideplate and cheekpiece somewhat reminiscent of Jacob George or Stophel Long.

[cwbuff]

Northern Berks Co. near the Lehigh Co. line.   Berks architecture & and patchbox.   Sideplate and cheekpiece somewhat reminiscent of Jacob George or Stophel Long.

Thanks - this is very interesting to me. I am used to evaluating guns that are mass-produced, not works of art.

[jdm]

I'm with Lucky on this one. Leaning towards the style of Jacob  George. I don't remember seeing this patch box design on a Stophel  Long before .  I'm not schooled on  J. Baer's work  but I'm guessing this might be a period restock using one of his barrel's .  Jim

[Buck]

I agree, one of the Georges.

Buck

[cwbuff]

With the information that you all have posted, I started looking at rifles attributed to Jacob George. Even my novice eye can see a strong resemblance. Here are some more pics of my rifle that show some additional details. Is there anything unique to the muzzle decoration?

[jdm]

The only think unique about the dots on the muzzle is there still there. A large percentage of rifles have been cut back from the muzzle end so you don't see  the markings. 

[Hungry Horse]

 I believe this gun was built by Baer, just as it states on the barrel. This is the first gun I have seen that displays many of the characteristics that are on my gun. The patchbox hinge is unusual in that it has only three sections with no knuckles on the lid. The barrel has twin lines engraved across the top flat on each side of the sights, and a propensity for using brass nails instead of screws. These characteristics are not present on guns by George, or Long.
 A few differences that are yet to be resolved are the engraving style, and the lack of side wings on the patchbox on my gun. This might be because my gun is an earlier offering from this maker, or some work on guns marked Baer might have been done by apprentices.
 After disassembling my gun in preparation for restoration, I found the barrel to be bright under the forearm, and the barrel marked by a known early barrel maker.
  Hungry Horse

[cwbuff]

So the question is which "J. Baer"

[Hungry Horse]

 I would say not a Baer from Lancaster. Your gun, and mine, show strong Lehigh styling, and no hint of Lancaster. Mine has a little fancier inlays, and some very nice piercings on the patchbox finial. And although the sideplate is imbelished with finer engraving, it is light sheet metal, not heavy plate, just like yours. My gun also has a fine English lock, with a roller on the mainspring, it  was once flint, but was expertly converted in all likelihood by the original smith.
 I am confident that when we find a J. Baer in or around the Lehigh area we will have our man. I am very excited to see your gun. I really never expected to see another gun by this maker.

  Hungry Horse

[cwbuff]

Here is some more information plus one more picture that I missed of the rear sight. The barrel is 43-1/4" in length. The bore is rifled with 7 grooves and measures .50 cal (0.499").



temporary image share

[Hungry Horse]

Is the barrel straight, or slightly tapered? Mine is tapered, and about the length of yours. I thought it might have originally been swamped, but now seeing yours makes me think it was just tapered.

  Hungry Horse

[cwbuff]

Is the barrel straight, or slightly tapered? Mine is tapered, and about the length of yours. I thought it might have originally been swamped, but now seeing yours makes me think it was just tapered.

  Hungry Horse

Measured flat-to-flat, it is 0.93" just in front of the lock and is 0.87" at the muzzle. So very slightly tapered, but not noticeable to the eye.

[Hungry Horse]

Another oddity that my gun has is the barrel lugs are made of thin folded brass sheet metal. The dovetails that they fit into are so shallow that over time the forearm shrunk, and literally pulled the lugs out of the dovetails. This allowed the forearm to move around enough that the edges of the upper forearm broke off in several places. The forearm of my gun is very thin. The barrel lug are inletted clear through into the ramrod channel, and shrinkage has caused cracks that run the full length of the forearm in the ramrod channel.

  Hungry Horse

[Hungry Horse]

 My barrel is marked I. Scholb on the bottom flat at the breech. I've been told this is a known barrel maker.
 The Baer family appeared to be primarily involved in large farming operations in, and around Lehigh county Pennsylvania. They were married into several prominent families, some with ties to prominent gunsmiths in the area. There are many family members with the first initial "J". I suspect that one of these J. Baer farmers, also made guns as a sideline. A couple of them were also listed as blacksmiths which might help narrow the field.

  Hungry Horse

[cwbuff]

Another oddity that my gun has is the barrel lugs are made of thin folded brass sheet metal. The dovetails that they fit into are so shallow that over time the forearm shrunk, and literally pulled the lugs out of the dovetails. This allowed the forearm to move around enough that the edges of the upper forearm broke off in several places. The forearm of my gun is very thin. The barrel lug are inletted clear through into the ramrod channel, and shrinkage has caused cracks that run the full length of the forearm in the ramrod channel.

  Hungry Horse

I have not disassembled my rifle, so I don't know about the dovetails. But I did pull the ramrod and can see the folded brass sheetmetal tenons protruding into the ramrod channel.

PS: How common is using folded brass sheetmetal as a barrel attachment technique?

[cwbuff]

My barrel is marked I. Scholb on the bottom flat at the breech. I've been told this is a known barrel maker.
 The Baer family appeared to be primarily involved in large farming operations in, and around Lehigh county Pennsylvania. They were married into several prominent families, some with ties to prominent gunsmiths in the area. There are many family members with the first initial "J". I suspect that one of these J. Baer farmers, also made guns as a sideline. A couple of them were also listed as blacksmiths which might help narrow the field.

  Hungry Horse

I also found a few members of the Baer family in Lehigh County. My wife is German, so one also needs to look for the original German spelling of "Baer" as "Bär", which you will also find.

Here is some info on the Baer family: http://www.berks.pa-roots.com/books/montgomery/b02.html

[Hungry Horse]

The genealogy I read said the Baer family did indeed originally spell their name Bar, but without the fancy punctuation. It said they were Swiss.
 I have never seen barrel lugs made from such thin brass stock. I also have never seen dovetails cut this shallow. It would be interesting to know what they used to accomplish this.

  Hungry Horse

[cwbuff]

I just noticed that my rifle also has a prayer hole in the bottom of the patch box up under the finial. How common are these?

[Hungry Horse]

My gun saw very little service as a percussion gun, in my opinion. There is very little cap erosion on the barrel, and almost none on the lock. The hammer face isn't eaten away either. Mine, although it suffering from what I would call closet wear doesn't seem to show the type of damage you see from hard use. Being in California, we see what the trip across the prairies, and carving out a new life can do to a gun. Much of the original varnish is still on the stock.

  Hungry Horse