English SXS Flint Fowling piece...

[Longknife]

I am building an English SXS Flint Fowling piece...Looking for info, on this type of gun, what makes a piece "early", what makes a piece "late"? Any info or examples would be  appreciated. I am wanting to finish up this project and need to order the correct parts to make an early piece....THANKS, Ed

[smart dog]

Hi Ed,
The earliest English examples of which I have read descriptions and seen photos were from the 1760s by Griffin and William Bailes.  Several examples used barrels made in France suggesting the French were making them much earlier.  The barrels on the earliest guns were the same length as a typical single barrel fowling gun (39-42") and usually of Spanish form (octagon to round).  Some had a rib filling the space between the octagon flats on top and some had ribs going all the way to the muzzle on top. I do not believe any had ribs on the bottom.  The locks were full sized fowler locks with flat plates and there was a double standing or hooked breech.  I do not think there were any special breeching arrangements just flat breech plugs.  Several are described in Neal and Back's "Great British Gunmakers Messrs Griffin, Tow, and Bailes".  There are some examples of doubles by John Twigg from the 1770s and 1780s in Neal and Backs "Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790".  After Nock's patent breech became popular and the quality of powder improved greatly in the last quarter of the 18th century, doubles became much more popular because the barrel length was usually reduced to less than 34".  The guns became much lighter and handier and thus more popular.  The later doubles (after 1785 or so) used smaller locks with all the roller frizzen, waterproof pan, etc.  bells and whistles, full length ribs on both top and bottom of the barrels, which were usually round,  and the stocks and hardware followed the style changes typical of all sporting guns of the time.   There are many good photos and descriptions of those kinds of guns in Neal and Back's "The Mantons, Gunmakers".

dave

[jerrywh]

 I agree with Smart Dog 100%

[Mike Brooks]

I handled a SXS 11 bore by Bailes  ca. 1760 or so at Friendship some years ago. Being an 11 bore it was VERY uncommon. If you're going that early you'll have to find a "husk" finial trigger guard. Nobody makes them so you'll have to make one....good luck. Parts for these are nigh impossible to come up with easily, especially early. For locks on an early gun you'l be stuck with either L&R's Queen Anne or possibly something Caywood sells.
 These are tough enough to build with out going early, I'd suggest something post 1800 and around 20 bore.

[Longknife]

Thanks, Smart dog, I didn't realize they were being built so early. Let me rephrase that question, I have a pair of 16 ga. 31 inch barrels already breeched with patent breeches and I have a pair of Durs Egg locks.  I want to make a fowling piece that would date about 1780-1790 as opposed to say after 1800. I know the patent breech was patented in 1787.   There are many retailers that say their parts are "early" or "late" but they don't say how early or late, they just want to sell you what they have in stock. I want all the parts "correct" for a 1790 gun.....Looked for those books,,,,$300 for the pair,,,,OUCH!

[Mike Brooks]

Looked for those books,,,,$300 for the pair,,,,OUCH!

That's CHEAP! Buy them quick!

[smart dog]

Hi Ed,
The Durs Egg locks are a little large but should work. The L&R Baby Mantons (Bailes) locks might be better except for the goofy curved plate.  Go to www.flintlockcollection.net and click on sporting guns.  Some of the early 19th century guns are appropriate for your project because not much changed between 1785-1805 until the patent breeches incorporated a step inward to shorten the vent hole distance and thin the wrist.  The basic styling of the guns did not change all that much. You should have patent breeches installed but without steps.  The steel hardware did not vary much. Typically the guns had trigger guards with pineapple finials, some with scroll guards and others just a trigger bow.  Earlier in your period of interest, the wrist might be plain or checkered in the very coarse way typical of fowling guns from the 1770s-1780s.  However, by 1790 or so the checkering evolved into the fine flat topped checkering commonly seen on English late flint guns. Butt plates were smaller than those typically used on the older fowlers.  The butt plate return was often much shorter and a simple tab with a point.  No carving and at most very stubby beaver tails on the lock surround, simple silver medallion wrist inlay, perfect inletting and superb hammer and chisel engraving.  Blued or browned barrels with the coloring being almost translucent and polished.  Do you have Brockaway's book on making a double?

dave

[Mike Brooks]

Here's one I did with Durrs Egg locks. They are  pretty big, but it's a big  14 bore gun gun. Coin silver trigger guard and entry pipe. Barrels were old damascus percussion barrels, probably 32" or so now. Schippers did the engraving on this one. This gun has won the "Top Gun" honors at the Friendship sporting clays range many times.....has more to do with the shooter than anything I did making the gun.....

[Mike Brooks]

[thimble rig]

That's beautiful work Mr Brooks.I bet that was a fun project to do.

[Longknife]

Thanks Dave, I have Brockways book, used his directions to maker the breeches, with NO steps. I have a SXS fowler with the Bailes locks but they just look tiny to me. I have looked at that website, and saved many pictures, here is another one with some good examples.  http://www.drake.net/newantique
Thanks for the info,,, Ed

Ok Mike, I am boxing up the parts and sending them today, just have it done by Pheasant season!!!!

[Mike Brooks]

I built 4 or 5  SXS flint guns. Never found any of them fun, they're a bunch of work. I turned down doing dozens of them in the past ten years or so. Good luck to you though!

[Bob Roller]

I built 4 or 5  SXS flint guns. Never found any of them fun, they're a bunch of work. I turned down doing dozens of them in the past ten years or so. Good luck to you though!

I made a few sets of locks for the SxS,most were based of the L&R small Manton/Bailes.
No more of those either.

Bob Roller

[Robby]

Beautiful gun Mike!!!!!
Robby

[smart dog]

Mike, those are stupendous!  Did you do the engraving too?  It is absolutely bang on from a historical perspective.

dave

[Daryl]

VERY nicely done, Mike - loverly indeed.

[Joe S.]

That is a beautiful double Mike,and a shooter as well,nice!

[Mike Brooks]

Mike, those are stupendous!  Did you do the engraving too?  It is absolutely bang on from a historical perspective.

dave

You read about as well as I do! No, as stated above, John Schippers did the engraving. That's way beyond my capabilities.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Sorry Mike, somehow I missed that sentence.  Beautiful work, Mike!

dave

[Mike Brooks]

Hi,
Sorry Mike, somehow I missed that sentence.  Beautiful work, Mike!

dave

No   worries...I only mentioned it because I got popped for doing the same thing a couple days ago.

[webradbury]

How did you make the coin silver triggerguard? I love it!

[Mike Brooks]

How did you make the coin silver triggerguard? I love it!

The owner of the gun took a sand casting class at one of the local colleges and sand cast it out of pre 64 dimes.

[Daryl]

Hi,
Sorry Mike, somehow I missed that sentence.  Beautiful work, Mike!

dave

No   worries...I only mentioned it because I got popped for doing the same thing a couple days ago.

LOL - maybe it's a Canadian thing?

[Mike Brooks]

Hi,
Sorry Mike, somehow I missed that sentence.  Beautiful work, Mike!

dave

No   worries...I only mentioned it because I got popped for doing the same thing a couple days ago.

LOL - maybe it's a Canadian thing?

I'm sure it is.....