Author Topic: Files & Gravers  (Read 3601 times)

Offline JCKelly

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Files & Gravers
« on: May 22, 2017, 09:48:59 PM »
Acer S. recently wrote something like "Who cut the files . . . made the gravers?"

Brought to mind an old recipe for hardening files. Would make a file every bit as good as Nicholson did in the USA, until Our Gov't got into the act. US Gov't prohibited use of that nasty potassium ferrocyanide in heat treat. This is a chemical currently used to prevent caking in Sea Salt for the food we eat. Ya can eat the stuff but not heat treat with it. Can you say "Kasenit"? No, not anymore you can't.

So here is the recipes for files, and for gravers, from Sources for the History of the Science of Steel 1532 - 1786, Cyril Stanley Smith.

"The Thirteenth Book of Natural Magick, 1589, by G.B. Della Porta:

                                                                           Chap. IV.
                             How, for all mixtures, Iron may be tempered most hard

Now I will shew some ways whereby Iron may be made extream hard: for that Iron that must be used for an Instrument to hammer, and polish, and fit other Iron, must be much harder then  that.

                                                 The temper of Iron for Files.

It must be made of the best Steel, and excellently tempered, that it may polish, anf fit other Iron as it should be: Take Ox hoofs, and put them into an Oven to dry, that they may be powdered fine; mingle well one part of this with as much common Salt, beaten Glass, and Chimney-soot, and beat them together, and lay them up for your use in a wooden Vessel hanging in the smoak; for the salt will melt with any moisture of the place or Air. The powder being prepared, make your iron like to a file; then cut it chequerwise, and crossways, with a sharp edged tool: having made the iron tender and soft, as I said, then make an iron chest fit to lay up your files in, and put them into it, strewing on the powder by course, that they may be covered all over: then put on the cover, and lute well the chinks with clay and straw, that the smoak of the powder may not breath out; and then lay a heap of burning coals all over it, that it may be red-hot about an hour: when you think the powder to be burnt and consumed, take the chest out from the coals with iron pinchers, and plunge the files into very cold water, and so they will become extream hard. This is the usual temper for files; for we fear not if the files should be wrested by cold waters."

This four-centuries old process is entirely correct, by current metallurgical knowledge. The chimney soot, of course, is a nearly pure source of carbon to carburize or case harden the surface. “Ox hoofs”, provide nitrogen as well. Nitrogen, along with the carbon, further improves sliding wear resistance. Salt and glass melt the whole mess together to provide intimate contact with the surface, and “activate” the surface to make it easier for the iron to absorb carbon. This is really 21st Century stuff!  Even today the “usual temper for files” is just as they come from the quench, with no further reheat/temper/draw.

also -

                                                       "A Tool made to cut Iron.

When the same red Rose colour appears, plunge it into the water, or some sharp liquor that we shall shew; and you must obsrve the second yellow colour, or wheat color, and then csst it into the water. There are the best."

I think that 'second yellow colour" was the temper color. We use the term "straw" color.

Until recent years when our EPA  helped protect us, Nicholson file practice was to coat the just-cut high carbon steel files with a roughly similar mixture before hardening from a protective molten lead (now bismuth)  bath. The modern version of “Ox Hoofs” is potassium ferrocyanide, K4Fe(CN)6. It provides nitrogen, great for sliding wear, along with carbon. This was mixed with flour and bone black, and all were boiled together in salt water. They used to call the stuff "cyanide loaf", a truly frightening name.

Guess I should make it clear "FERROCYANIDE" is not especially poisonous. Still, it might be best not to make sandwiches using your cyanide loaf.

My grandsons' Mom reads product labels & was quick to point out that same chemical on a can of Kroger's Sea Salt. To the trash, now.

No, I do not know whether the gunsmith himself or some special Filemaker Guild did this work in '89.

Offline Randall Steffy

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Re: Files & Gravers
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2017, 10:24:55 PM »
Most interesting! Thank you.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Files & Gravers
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2017, 12:12:33 AM »
When I stated making guns and gun parts I used potassium ferrocyanide to harden screws and stuff. At that time you could buy it by the gallon. I still have almost a gallon of it. Kasenit use to have that in it but they changed the recipe.  Kelly knows what he is talking about. Back when the file makers  use to cut the teeth by hand wit ha chisel. The Engravers of the 18th century made their own gravers and it was a carefully guarded secret.
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Files & Gravers
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2017, 12:46:06 AM »
This is knowledge that I have lived without for 70 years but wished I had 50 years ago. Thanks for the info and history guys.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Files & Gravers
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2017, 01:21:35 AM »
The Indian Brown Bess & French Musket makers use cyanide for heat treating frizzens and other parts still.

I will say, once I ground the cross ridges (like a glass antique scrub-board) off the frizzen of the Indian Bess I bought, it sure sparked well.   It probably sparked well for them too, after I returned it.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Files & Gravers
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2017, 04:41:19 AM »
 you can buy this stuff on ebay. It is way better than kasenit.  https://www.ebay.com/p/?iid=192173889732&&&chn=ps
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Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Files & Gravers
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2017, 04:22:04 PM »
Very informative, thanks for sharing. Now to head to my local Ox Hoof emporium.
”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

Offline Randall Steffy

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Re: Files & Gravers
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2017, 07:33:01 PM »
Jerry,
Am I to understand that one could use potassium ferrocyanide as one used Kasenit and for the same purpose? If the application is the same but the procedure different, would you please explain? Thanks for your generosity.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Files & Gravers
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2017, 07:47:48 PM »
deepcreek & Alia

If you like tradition, cow hoofs are available from pet stores.

I'm lazy so would start at jerrywh's site, buy a pound of Food Grade potassium ferrocyanide for 20 bucks. Then mix the stuff with whatever soot you can lay your hands on, to get plenty of carbon available (Not Kingsford, that contains sulfur from its petrochem ingrediant).

No, I don't know what all is in Kasenit but carbon and some white chemical that melts are obvious.

Anyway, thank you jerrywh

Food Grade. That is the stuff Our Gov't won't permit be used by either you, with Kasenit in your shop, or by Nicholson with their Cyanide Loaf

FOOD GRADE.

And some wonder about Our Gov't?

Offline PPatch

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Re: Files & Gravers
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2017, 09:13:52 PM »
This is a good thread, informative, and I'm enjoying it. The Science Company has 100g bottles of laboratory grade Potassium-Ferricyanide for $11 bucks.

https://www.sciencecompany.com/Potassium-Ferricyanide-100g-P6372.aspx

fyi

dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Files & Gravers
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2017, 10:52:46 PM »
Remember the " i "

Potassium ferrocyanide

not ferricyanide

I do not know what difference it makes in heat treat, but it is the ferrocyanide that was used in Nicholson;s Cyanide Loaf.

I like to chat. So I learned this stuff from their engineers during technical support calls with our salesman. Nicholson used our stuff in their lead pot heat treating system.