On Guns International

[louieparker]

You Hawken lovers might like to look at a rifle listed on Guns International web site.. Listed as a J&S Hawken. Do you think its worth the money ??   LP....  http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/antique-rifles-percussion/hawken-plains-rifle-full-stock-jake-and-sam-hawken-.cfm?gun_id=100859825............

[rich pierce]

Would like to see a close up of the lock and a good look at the tang.  The attachment of the guard at the rear loop is different than what I'm used to.  Mighty good shape.  Barrel patina looks very splotchy. Would like to see the buttplate joint.  The idea it's originally flint is reasonable and might add value for collectors, and would explain the drum and nipple. Certainly there are not that many J&S fullstock Hawkens out there. 

[Longknife]

Here is my .02 which is probably about .005!!!, The wood looks mighty good, not many bumps , cracks or shrinkage for a 200 year old gun,,,, if  it was shot much as a percussion I would expect to see some wood blacking  around the lock!! not convinced,,,,,Ed

[bama]

Is that a second pin hole I see in the forestock?

[louieparker]

Ed, Yes, that and other things.  Not a rifle I would buy regardless of price.  Maybe we are just too picky   LP

[Dphariss]

The TG attached with wood screws, the short bar triggers, the trigger shaping and the BP are very much like the 1/2 stocked J&S I looked at recently. That example is an early rifle plains rifle with a cheek rest nearly identical to the silver mounted "Atchinson" rifle in the Cody Museum that is dated to 1836.
Funny there is no maker's/dealer's name on the lock plate.
I think this rifle is a restock by the shaping and the original may or may not have been flint. Would take a lot of looking to be sure. But the barrel pinned not keyed something I see as a flag..... Stock is just too nice.... That is has no significant chlorate pitting at the breech is interesting though. If it was used much with corrosive caps there is invariably damage at the breech especially in drum an nipple guns (which IMO the Hawken shop is unlikely to have installed). Given the length, and the rear sight placement, its not likely that it was shortened at the breech which "cleans up" the chlorate pits..

Dan

[Dphariss]

Would like to see a close up of the lock and a good look at the tang.  The attachment of the guard at the rear loop is different than what I'm used to.  Mighty good shape.  Barrel patina looks very splotchy. Would like to see the buttplate joint.  The idea it's originally flint is reasonable and might add value for collectors, and would explain the drum and nipple. Certainly there are not that many J&S fullstock Hawkens out there.

Given the "Petersen" rifle and another early 1/2 stock J&S rifle I recently examoned, the BP, TG, set triggers are all a match. We are not used to looking at 1830s Hawken plains rifles. We are used to Gold Rush, Oregon Trail and Indian Wars era fully evolved Hawken plains rifles of the 1840s-60s.

Dan

[rich pierce]

It has a lot of similarities to the Peterson Hawken in Baird's book.  Buttplate is brazed.  Scroll guard is mated to a short bar set of double set triggers.  Nice slim lock panels.  The lock was definitely flint, originally.  One heck of a big sturdy rifle likely converted from flint.  I agree, Dan, comparing it to later, full blown S. Hawken rifles and expecting it to be the same is probably not the best approach.

Given it has a standing, not hooked breech, should we really expect keys not pins?

[Dphariss]

It has a lot of similarities to the Peterson Hawken in Baird's book.  Buttplate is brazed.  Scroll guard is mated to a short bar set of double set triggers.  Nice slim lock panels.  The lock was definitely flint, originally.  One heck of a big sturdy rifle likely converted from flint.  I agree, Dan, comparing it to later, full blown S. Hawken rifles and expecting it to be the same is probably not the best approach.

Given it has a standing, not hooked breech, should we really expect keys not pins?

I would expect keys but I have not seen every FS J&S Hawken. The stock work is just not right. IMO. So I say restock.

Dan

[Bob Roller]

Is that a second pin hole I see in the forestock?

I see two holes in the lower front section of the lock plate that look
too low for any main spring stud. Maybe a removed frizzen spring?
Drum in the place of a flash hole and as mentioned,little or no perchlorate
corrosion at the breech.
I claim no expertise on Hawken rifles but this piece is interesting.

Bob Roller

[Dphariss]

Its possible it could have been made a FL and I can't see Jake and Sam NOT making FLs into the 1830s and of course later considering the S Hawken in the Smithsonian.
The hardware other than the barrel is very similar to the rifle shown in a drawing on page 89 of "15 Years in The Hawken Lode" By Baird.
Can't make pronouncements from the photos on the auction sight much beyond that. Would be nice if they would give a WEIGHT of the rifle.

Dan

[rich pierce]

I bet it weighs 10 pounds, at least.

[mountainman70]

Just checked on GI,and site sez it been sold !!! Yehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! Dave